JMS: Fan Reactions and Changing Assessments

Mon Apr 8 02:03:01 EDT 1996

Subject: JMS: Fan Reactions and Changing Assessments
 No.   DATE           FROM
-----+-------------+--------------------------------------------------
+  1: Apr  4, 1996: tburke1 at swarthmore.edu (Timothy Burke)
*  2: Apr  4, 1996: jmsatb5 at aol.com (Jms at B5)
+  4: Apr  5, 1996: bayern at morpheus.cis.yale.edu (Shawn Bayern)
*  5: Apr  5, 1996: jmsatb5 at aol.com (Jms at B5)

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From: tburke1 at swarthmore.edu (Timothy Burke)
Lines: 40

One thing I wondered about, while reading the CIS and occasional AOL
repostings here, is how JMS felt about the general fan reaction to
"Messages From Earth", "Point of No Return" and now "Severed Dreams"
(which I don't see until Saturday). 

"Messages From Earth", after all, was widely anticipated based on JMS's
own assessment that it was the best episode of the series to date. The
general reaction here was one of letdown, and looking back, I still see it
as the weak link in this important tryptch. Even if I see the three
episodes as essentially one huge episode, or a three-act episode, then
"Messages" is a weak first act.

By contrast, "Point" was a very strong episode--not quite the equal of
"Coming of Shadows" but in a league with "Fall of Night", "Signs and
Portents" and "The Long, Twilight Struggle", I think. Judging from advance
reaction, "Severed Dreams" is being hailed as the best ever, or at least
on a equal plane with "CoS".

"Messages" was sort of a minor embarrassment for me because I encouraged
some real skeptics to watch it, heralding it as the likely best, and it
just wasn't. A couple of people liked it enough that they are going to
watch more, but they weren't overwhelmed. It sounds like "Severed" was the
one to direct people to. Or, for that matter, "Dust to Dust", an
unheralded but superb episode.

What I'm wondering, now that JMS is thankfully back in our neck of the
woods, is how much these kinds of general reactions surprise him or change
his own perceptions of episodes. Does he see "Messages" in a different
light now, judging from how many of us thought it had structural,
story-telling problems that can't be resolved, in the way that some other
misperceived 'problems' have been, by developments later in the arc? Or
does he still think it's a rival to "The Coming of Shadows"? 

What other fan reactions have surprised or confounded JMS? There have been
plenty of cases where JMS and fans are in total agreement: "Infection" on
one hand, and "Coming of Shadows" on the other. But where has JMS been
taken aback by our readings or impressions or rethought an episode based
on our interpretations? Just curious.

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From: jmsatb5 at aol.com (Jms at B5)
Lines: 53

"One thing I wondered about, while reading the CIS and occasional AOL
repostings here, is how JMS felt about the general fan reaction to
"Messages From Earth", "Point of No Return" and now "Severed Dreams"
(which I don't see until Saturday). 

""Messages From Earth", after all, was widely anticipated based on JMS's
own assessment that it was the best episode of the series to date. The
general reaction here was one of letdown, and looking back, I still see it
as the weak link in this important tryptch. Even if I see the three
episodes as essentially one huge episode, or a three-act episode, then
"Messages" is a weak first act.

"What I'm wondering, now that JMS is thankfully back in our neck of the
woods, is how much these kinds of general reactions surprise him or change
his own perceptions of episodes. Does he see "Messages" in a different
light now, judging from how many of us thought it had structural,
story-telling problems that can't be resolved, in the way that some other
misperceived 'problems' have been, by developments later in the arc?"

One of the problems in any discussion of this sort is the tendency to
accept one's own perceptions as the facts.  The reaction I saw from fans
when "Messages" hit was that it was one of our strongest episodes.  Okay,
you felt differently, and that's fair.  But it doesn't invalidate the
many, *many* people who felt otherwise.  I'm even willing to go out on a
limb here and say that it was very popular with the majority of viewers. 
It came out very high on the P5 survey as well.  I happen to like
raspberries more than strawberries.  Does that mean that raspberries are
objectively better than strawberries and that the producers of
strawberries should reconsider their position?  Of course not.

Which, in a way, is the answer to your question.  There has never, in the
history of TV, been one episode of any series which is uniformly hailed by
every viewer, and liked or disliked for exactly the same reason. 
Everybody sees the episodes differently.  If I were to start running after
10 million viewers to change my opinion of the shows, with 10 million
opinions, each of whom thinks that their opinion is right (and it is, but
it's right for *them*, it's not *objectively* right), each of which is
contradictory with every other view...you'd go mad.

You just can't tell a story that way.  

(BTW, what "story problems" are there in "Messages?"  None have been
pointed out to me so far of any substance.)

So anyway, I'm happy that you enjoyed "Dreams," and that it compensated
for any lack of spiffiness in your view of "Messages."

 jms

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From: bayern at morpheus.cis.yale.edu (Shawn Bayern)
Lines: 53

In article <4k1c3q$nlu at newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Jms at B5 <jmsatb5 at aol.com> wrote:
>""Messages From Earth", after all, was widely anticipated based on JMS's
>own assessment that it was the best episode of the series to date. The
>general reaction here was one of letdown, and looking back, I still see it
>as the weak link in this important tryptch. Even if I see the three
>episodes as essentially one huge episode, or a three-act episode, then
>"Messages" is a weak first act.

It's strange -- I obviously agree with JMS in many matters of taste 
(since I love his show), but I always seem to disagree on finer points.  
I have no idea why . . .

For instance, I liked "Babylon Squared" and "Points of Departure" much
more than Chrysalis.  I liked "The Fall of Night" better than "The Long 
Twilight Struggle," while JMS, if I remember correctly, wrote that he 
preferred TLTS because of its nonstop intensity.  I think it *had* that 
intensity, but to maintain this, it had to sacrifice a little in the way 
of suspense (we knew it was going to be a big episode, and the 
possibility of the fall of the Narn homeworld was mentioned right away; I 
wasn't *sure* that I knew that the Narn homeworld was definitely going to 
fall, but I don't believe it was too hard to guess).  TFoN, on the other 
hand, builds up to a great intensity; it's a series of events arranged 
into a twisting, fascinating story.  There was something that just seemed 
incredibly likely about TFoN -- even more than the rest of the series.  
It just felt as if these events were *happening*, not for any particular 
reason -- not to fulfill a goal or effect a change in the series (though 
it certainly *did* these things -- it just had the added advantage of not 
*appearing* as if it was *trying* to do these things, which made it 
seem incredibly like, perhaps, a verbatim historical account).  

And I liked PoNR more than Messages.

Now, I absolutely love CoS; no sane person wouldn't.  But in my mind, 
it's been *already* overshadowed by PoNR.  And episodes like "And the Sky 
Full of Stars," B^2, and now PoNR might even overshadow it.  I remember 
JMS once saying that at one point, he preferrred "Parliament of Dreams" 
to some other major first-season episodes because of its quirkiness and 
other endearing characteristics, and I might still rate PoD very highly 
in comparison with other incredibly great episodes.

Why am I babbling on like this?  I'm not particularly sure.  It seems 
that there's an incredibly strong concensus on the quality of "Severed 
Dreams," and I'm expecting that this time, I'll agree with JMS on finer 
points of taste like the best episode ever, etc.

In any case, I'm curious just how far away my opinions are from the rest 
of the people in the group?  Are people staring at me saying "He liked 
*what*?" and "He preferred *which* episode?"

Eagerly awaiting Severed Dreams,

Shawn

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From: jmsatb5 at aol.com (Jms at B5)
Lines: 25

The other thing to bear in mind in all of this is that the degree to which
we are affected by an episode depends to some measure on what we bring to
the experience.  Some elements are going to register more with some than
with others, due to our background and experience.  Some women reacted
*very* strongly to "Comes the Inquisitor" because of their feelings about
the whole male/female dynamic and the way it had touched their lives
previously.

We will never all agree on these things, and never should.  If we all
agreed we'd be the Stepford B5 Viewing Association.

(Oh, and one other thing...very often, viewers re-assess episodes after
the fact.  "And Now For a Word" being a good example.  When it first came
out, a number of folks weren't sure about it, because they were taken
aback by the narrative device.  Lately, on the rerun, a *lot* of them, on
various nets, said they'd watched it again and re-evaluated their opinion,
felt it was under-rated, and better than they'd first thought.  So, again,
which opinion do you listen to?  Fundamentally, you have to follow the
story where it takes you.  Nothing else makes sense.)

 jms

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