JMS on CompuServe (Oct 06, 1997) *POSSIBLE SPOILERS* (1/2)
bbarrett at speedlink.com
bbarrett at speedlink.com
Mon Oct 6 16:13:56 EDT 1997
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WARNING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The following posts may contain SPOILERS for
upcoming Babylon 5 episodes.
Continue at your own risk.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
S
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL IS THE COPYRIGHT OF THE
RESPECTIVE MESSAGE AUTHORS AND CANNOT BE
REPRODUCED IN ANY FORM WITHOUT THE EXPRESSED
PERMISSION OF THE AUTHOR.
Note that JMS has expressed his public permission
that all of his messages may be reproduced freely.
I give permission for my summaries to be reposted in
any form, however I reserve all rights to them and
the right to revoke this permission at any time.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Archives of this material may be found at:
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**********************************************
[ Summary of subjects in this section: ]
Sb: #706702-JMS to get royalties ???
Sb: #706914-No season 4 ender
Sb: #707200-1998 Calander
Sb: #706875-CC Situation
Sb: #706968-CC Situation
Sb: from jms: merchandise
Sb: #707291-#CC Situation
[ Summary: A viewer comments that season five will be shown on Monday
nights on TNT. ]
#: 707209 S5/Babylon 5: General
05-Oct-97 00:29:45
Sb: #706702-JMS to get royalties ???
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Actually, the new schedule has been set for S5 episodes at Wednesday at
10:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 p.m. Western, which is a terrific slot, I think.
jms
#: 706914 S5/Babylon 5: General
03-Oct-97 23:10:47
Sb: #No season 4 ender
Fm: CARL CANTARELLA
Joe,
What prompted the new B5 Forum?
Oh, and I thought you might get a kick out of the message
below.
Subj: No season 4 ender Section: Babylon 5: General
To: Carl Cantarella, 105030,3700 Saturday, October 04, 1997 12:54:23 AM
From: Andy Gulick, 74241,1230 #706910
I knew that a station carried on the DISH Network satellite system, WSBK
(Boston), showed Babylon 5 so I called them to see if they were going to be
airing the final 4 episodes of season 4. They said they were. So I picked up a
DISH Network package on Sept 29, installed it the next day and activated
programming on Oct 1. I will be watching my first Babylon 5 on satellite this
coming Saturday. My local station (all of them really) as well as TCI can jump
off a cliff as far as I'm concerned.
Hey JMS. How's that for fan dedication? (He probably won't see this but I had
to say it anyway. :-)
Andy
#: 707210 S5/Babylon 5: General
05-Oct-97 00:29:47
Sb: #706914-No season 4 ender
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Good luck with the dish, and I look forward to hearing your reactions.
jms
#: 707200 S5/Babylon 5: General
04-Oct-97 21:08:28
Sb: #707012-#1998 Calander
Fm: REBECCA ESCHLIMAN
Di,
<< Whereupon I scampered downstairs and phoned my local B&N and had my
name put on the list for it. <G> Hopefully they won't run out before
they get to my name! The girl I spoke with doesn't know how many
they'll be getting, or when...<G> >>
Last week I was looking through the Order Processing system at work --
most B&N's will be receiving between 6 and 12 calendars. As to when,
progress looks good -- most of the printing has been done, so there is
the cutting, binding, serializing and packaging yet to do. We should
make the October 15th ship date.
As to the Waldenbooks situation, the reason I heard for their
resistance: HQ people have never heard of B5, and since they
overloaded on Star Trek merchandise which didn't sell, they figured it
was more of the same.
Catch you in the new digs...
-rje-
But then there was a star danced, and under that was I born.
#: 707214 S5/Babylon 5: General
05-Oct-97 01:26:13
Sb: #707200-1998 Calander
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
"HQ people have never heard of B5, and since they overloaded on Star Trek
merchandise which didn't sell, they figured it was more of the same."
This kills me...and I've heard it before...because when we went on the
air, some places didn't want to carry our stuff (like the micromachines)
because it wasn't (or wasn't like) like Star Trek and only Star Trek
sells...and now they are reluctant to carry us because they think we're like
Star Trek and Star Trek DOESN'T sell anymore....
Some days you just can't win.
jms
#: 706875 S5/Babylon 5: General
03-Oct-97 17:28:23
Sb: #706872-#CC Situation
Fm: HERO GAMES (SUE)
Carl,
For me, it's simple.
Claudia says she still wants to do the show.
She also says she was never told she could do 18 shows at 18 episodes of pay.
(whether it was her agent that didn't tell her or someone else, I don't know)
I've never known her to lie, have you?
So what you think she knew or what you think she was told or what you think
might have happened is not relevant to me.
And playing 'if everyone had done this' games is a silly non-sequitur and not
worth discussing.
Sue
#: 707215 S5/Babylon 5: General
05-Oct-97 01:26:16
Sb: #706875-CC Situation
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
"She also says she was never told she could do 18 shows at 18 episodes of pay.
(whether it was her agent that didn't tell her or someone else, I don't know)"
Actually, if you read her statement, she does NOT say that. She says
only that she was told that the contract would read she would have to do 22 (if
she were being paid for 22). The 18-payment issue was never addressed by her
in any of her messages one way or another. You're reading something in that
was never actually stated.
Meanwhile...let me put this to you concisely. Her manager was told about
the 18/22 situation in no uncertain terms by John Copeland. Now, I have an
agent, same as Claudia has an agent. When I'm in negotiations with someone, as
we're currently in negotiations with WB for the sequel series, the agent takes
detailed notes and relays everything back to the client on terms and
conditions. Everything. An agent doesn't just say, "Oh, I think I'll tell my
client about A, B and C but not D, because s/he doesn't need to know that." It
simply doesn't happen. And at no time has Claudia EVER said, "My agent didn't
tell me this." She's simply never mentioned this aspect in any of her posts.
"I've never known her to lie, have you?"
Not to say otherwise, but...how long have you known her that you can say
this? Have you known her...or have you known the character? I'm not saying
she did here...because an omission is not a lie...I just find it a curious
thing for you to say.
jms
#: 706968 S5/Babylon 5: General
04-Oct-97 06:27:57
Sb: #706899-#CC Situation
Fm: HERO GAMES (SUE)
<<Interestingly enough, I can say that I saw her at a Westchester Con back in
June in which her elation about the then likely possibility of a fifth season
didn't quite jive with what happened a month later.>>
So she was psyched for season five at a con, then something happened a month
later that is ambiguous at best and this means she was lying about being
psyched for seaons 5? I don't think so.
<<yet did she even put the question to them concerning it? Obviously not.>>
No, nothing 'obvious' about it. You weren't there. I wasn't there. She was.
<shrug>
<<Well, this is a good one since most of my conclusions are based on ...>>
That's just it, Carl. They're your *conclusions*. Unless I have evidence to
the contrary, I'll take someone's stated facts over what happened to them over
the conclusions of someone who's using second hand knowledge any day.
Unless I've missed it, I've not yet seen any statement from another party
claiming that they *knew* she had an offer for 18 for 18. She states in no
uncertain terms that she did not.
She was looking forward to season five prior to this, and she is still stating
that she wants to be involved with the show. Again, I've no reason to believe
any of those statements are a lie.
For the last time, you weren't there, I wasn't there and I am not going to
accept any 'conclusions' you reach as being fact. I have no problem with you
forming your opinion, but when you start saying things like:
<<Claudia tried to pull a negotiation stunt and it failed, pure and simple>>
<< She insisted on being paid for 22 episodes while only having to appear in
18>>
<< CC fudged the truth and tried to manipulate not only the Studio, but the
fans as well.>>
and state them as *facts*, that's where I have a problem. None of these
statements are *facts* Carl, they are your opinions and conclusions, 'pure and
simple.'
Sue
#: 707216 S5/Babylon 5: General
05-Oct-97 01:26:20
Sb: #706968-CC Situation
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
"That's just it, Carl. They're your *conclusions*. Unless I have evidence to
the contrary, I'll take someone's stated facts over what happened to them over
the conclusions of someone who's using second hand knowledge any day."
A statement is not a fact. If that were true, then my statement would be
a *fact*, and someone else's would be a *fact*. And in that case, nothing is
true anymore.
Let me put this to you for a change, Sue: you keep saying you want
"evidence." Just to be brusque for a second...what the hell do you mean by
"evidence?" What would qualify to you as "evidence?" Be specific. Be as
concrete as you're asking others to be.
The cast, Bruce and Jeff and Stehen and others, have supported everything
I've said here, right down the line. Okay, that's not enough for you. What
is?
You keep asking for "evidence," so you must have some concrete notion as
to what constitutes evidence. Because short of producing audio tapes of phone
conversations (none exist), there IS no such evidence, and you're asking for
things that either do not exist, or would violate confidenatiality (i.e., notes
between Claudia and her agent).
You keep demanding evidence, Sue. Okay, now I'm asking you: if my
statements, and the statements of those who were in the UK when all this
happened, are not enough...statements from credible witnesses, myself included,
that would stand up as testimony in court but are apparently not enough for
you...then what, realistically, is evidence that could reasonsably be obtained?
Because I think you're deliberately asking for things that don't exist,
so you can continue to split hairs and make everybody else's opinion *just* an
opinion, while you state *facts*, at least in your mind.
jms
#: 707217 S5/Babylon 5: General
05-Oct-97 01:26:22
Sb: from jms: merchandise
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
I'm putting this in a few different places, so forgive any redundency....
We're starting to pull together the licensed B5 merchandise being put out by
the fan club, and I'm very pleased by it...especially the pins, as noted below.
For a long time now, pirate dealers have been putting out fake B5 Earth
Alliance pins, and they've been crummily made, either flimsy or breakable or
thick and clumsy, and charging fair-sized bucks for rotten, inferior products.
No more. Now you can get the real things, identical to the acual props in
every single respect, and overseen directly by Babylonian Productions to ensure
that they're accurate. (Along with everything else here.) But that's been a
real sore point for me for a long time, and I'm glad to have it taken care of
once and for all.
The following products are now available via the Fan Club website, located at
http://www.thestation.com (I'm omitting prices as per CIS policy, but will say
that the fanclub members get a discount on all items).
1) product # FCM - Fan Club Membership
This gets you the quarterly Universe Today, access to the Gold Channel personal
logs on thestation.com, and discounts on all FC products.
2) product # FCTC-01 - Fleer/Skybox Special Edition box with JMS autograph
3) product # FCTC-02 - Fleer/Skybox Special Edition box with Bruce Boxleitner
autograph.
4) product # FCJ-01 - Earth Alliance Pin
Baked Enamel blue and gold-tone pin, just like the real ones.
5) product # FCS-04 - "The Great Maker" T-shirt
When I directed "Sleeping in Light" (422), during lunch a substantial number of
cast and crew disappeared from the set, and returned wearing these shirts as a
surprise. A lot of people asked for these to be made available, and now they
are. Front reads, "Shh...The Great Maker is Directing". The back reads, "And
on the seventh day we wrapped".
6) product # FCP-02 - Recognition Chart Poster
This one I like a lot because it's just stinking cool...it's a perfect replica
of the recognition poster seen in pilot ready room on B5, struck from the same
master. It has Minbari, Shadow, and Earth ship silhouettes, as you'd see on a
WWII battleship.
7) product # FCH-01 - Aggie Hat
The product number may be revised. This is the crew cap for The Agamemnon,
Sheridan's ship prior to being assigned to B5, seen in "Knives" and which will
be seen in the fifth season as well. (And those who see the final 4 will see
that the Aggy has a lot more to do with the story.) Pricing is, I believe, the
same as the next item:
8) product # FCH-02 - Psi Corps Hat
This is another one we've been asked to produce by fans. The cap is black with
the Psi Corps logo on front. "The Psi Corps is your friend" is embroidered on
the back.
9) product # FCBK - Antioch Babylon 5 Calendar 1998
This is possibly the best graphic product associated with B5 publishing to
date. It's just gorgeous, with montage prints, quotes from the series, photos
galore, and many of the major events in the B5 storyline noted by date. This
is a limited edition with serialized numbers. We have the lowest numbers
available on the market.
And there are the CD's available from us, done by Christopher Franke:
product # FCCD-01 - Original Soundtrack
product # FCCD-02 - Messages From Earth
product # FCCD-03 - Avalon
product # FCCD-04 - Z'Ha'Dum
product # FCCD-05 - Shadow Dancing
product # FCCD-06 - Severed Dreams
product # FCCD-07 - Walkabout
Again, all this can be obtained via the Fan Club site, which has an order form.
Some of this has yet to be added to the form, so in the case of short or
limited orders, this will let you get a jump on things before they're sold out.
What we're doing here is what I think should be done with this stuff: you make
what you personally would want just because you think it's just cool....
jms
#: 707291 S5/Babylon 5: General
05-Oct-97 09:12:41
Sb: #CC Situation
Fm: HERO GAMES (SUE)
Joe,
Me <<"She also says she was never told she could do 18 shows at 18 episodes of
pay. (whether it was her agent that didn't tell her or someone else, I don't
know)"
You <<Actually, if you read her statement, she does NOT say that. She says
only that she was told that the contract would read she would have to do 22 (if
she were being paid for 22). The 18-payment issue was never addressed by her
in any of her messages one way or another. You're reading something in that
was never actually stated.>>
>From Claudia's website:
<<I was never offered 18 episodes at a different price, I was told "If TNT
wants you for all 22 -you have to do all 22" period. >>
Me>> "I've never known her to lie, have you?"
You>> Not to say otherwise, but...how long have you known her that you can say
this? Have you known her...or have you known the character? I'm not saying
she did here...because an omission is not a lie...I just find it a curious
thing for you to say.
Joe, I never said I know her well or at all, but my point was that neither does
Carl. Carl is claiming she is 'fudging' and that things she has said are not
true. The only support he has put forth for this argument is that she was
optimistic about Season Five at a con and then something happened and she now
isn't doing the show.
>From Claudia's website:
<<I have never said I did not want to be a part of season 5. I would be happy
to don Ivanova's uniform for episodes in season 5, the TNT movies of the week
or the potential feature>>
Regarding evidence, I'm not certain there is any. There are statements on
boths sides and a lot of confusion. However, I do expect evidence if someone
is going to level such accusations as Carl has. If someone is going to make
the statment that "X is what happened, pure and simple," I want proof that that
'X' happened. If someone is going to say "I think that this is *probably* what
happened," then that's an opinion and a conclusion.
Claudia says she was never offered 18 episodes at 18 episodes of pay. There
are several possibilities - her manager misunderstood Copeland; her manager
understood but didn't relay the offer; her manager relayed the offer and
Claudia misunderstood; Claudia's lying. (There may well be more, but this is
what comes immediately to mind)
So far no one has given me any reason to believe Claudia is lying, and for
someone to go around stating it as a fact is something I find personally
offensive whether it's about Claudia, about you or about anyone. If someone
were to tell me that *you* were lying in this situation, I would be just as
offended and just as strong in defending you.
I don't know any of the people involved, and therefore I'm not going to draw
any negative conclusions about anyone unless there is a first hand account. If
you were to say "I told Claudia she could do 18 episodes for 18 pay" then I
would see a direct conflict. As of yet, though, I don't see one. She does
state that she was told she could have four episodes off, but not in writing.
She states the movie studio required something in writing in order for her to
get the job.
I do not think you lied. I don't think she lied. To me, unless I have a
direct statement from someone to the contrary, it seems that there was a major
miscommunication somewhere, and that this misunderstanding has led to a great
deal of pain and hurt for the parties involved.
I don't know why you feel it necessary to slam me every time I post something
since I have yet to contradict anything you have said or malign you in any way.
You keep saying that *I* don't think your statements are enough. I've never
contradicted or disbelieved your statements.
You state that Claudia knew about the deadline. Nothing she has said has
contradicted this.
You state that Claudia was told she could have four episodes off but that you
couldn't put it in writing. Claudia has confirmed this in statements.
You state that Copeland told her agent she could do 18 eipisoes for 18 episodes
of pay. I've no reason to believe he did not.
You state the rest of the cast was encouraging her to make the deadline. I
believe this is true and have never said anything to the contrary.
The only two issues in the whole matter that I have questions about are:
1. Was Claudia told that she could do 18 episodes for 18 episodes of pay. If
you say "yes, I told her" or "I was there when she was told" or "My good friend
Bob who I know and trust told her" then fine, I would be prone to take your
word for it. However, so far as I can tell, there has been no statement from
anyone who can say that she was informed. Since she has made a statement
saying she was not told, then unless I have some reason to believe she's lying,
I'll take her word for it.
2. Did Claudia want to do season five? She stated before, during and after
that she wants to do B-5. Why should I believe she doesn't?
If I *have* said anything to indicate that I disbelieve your statements or if I
have inadvertantly contradicted or misinterpreted something you've said, then I
apologize for the misunderstanding.
It just seems a shame to me that all the parties involved seem to want Claudia
to remain in some capacity and for Ivanova to be a part of the show, but that
nothing is being done to bring this situation to it's conclusion (or if there
is, I haven't read anything to that end)
Is there some reason that a new contract couldn't be drawn up for a few
episodes such as has been done with Tracy Scoggins? As I understand it, she
will only be appearing in 8 episodes this season, and it just seems to me that
it would be to the benefit of everyone all around, from the studio to Claudia
to the fans, if something could be arranged.
Sue
#: 707377 S5/Babylon 5: General
05-Oct-97 15:59:25
Sb: #707291-#CC Situation
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
I note in the beinning that nowhere in your note did you cite what you
would consider "evidence." So please refrain from doing so in future, since
apparently you can't define it.
"If someone were to tell me that *you* were lying in this situation, I would be
just as offended and just as strong in defending you."
Sue, by taking the position you have taken in this, you are de facto
calling me a liar. I have said clearly that the situation was X. You have
said, repeatedly, that the situation could be Y. If it's Y then I'm a liar.
You may think this is just an academic exercise in intellectual fairness; you
are, however, calling my honesty into question.
"I don't know any of the people involved, and therefore I'm not going to draw
any negative conclusions about anyone unless there is a first hand account."
Yes, you *do* know at least one of the people involved, you know *me*,
and I *do* have a first hand account. There ain't much in the show that is
MORE first hand than me. You don't seem to grasp here that I *run* Babylon 5.
No offers are made to agents or actors that I don't know about.
"If you were to say "I told Claudia she could do 18 episodes for 18 pay" then I
would see a direct conflict."
Then there's a direct conflict because that is EXACTLY what she was told.
"Claudia says she was never offered 18 episodes at 18 episodes of pay."
No, she doesn't say that. Look back at what you posted again. I quote
you quoting her.
"I was never offered 18 episodes at a different price."
Not the same price. A DIFFERENT PRICE PER EPISODE. That's what I've
been trying to get you to understand for months now. There was a desire on
their part to get her a pay raise per episode, which would violate our
contracts with the other actors. She wanted to do 18 episodes for the 22
price. That only confirms what I have been saying here from day one.
"You keep saying that *I* don't think your statements are enough. I've never
contradicted or disbelieved your statements."
Yes you have, by implication. Maybe you don't see it that way, but I and
others here do.
"1. Was Claudia told that she could do 18 episodes for 18 episodes of pay. If
you say "yes, I told her" or "I was there when she was told" or "My good friend
Bob who I know and trust told her" then fine, I would be prone to take your
word for it."
YES, SHE WAS TOLD THAT. FOR THE TEN THOUSANDTH TIME, SHE THROUGH HER
MANAGER WAS TOLD THIS. WHAT PART OF THIS SENTENCE IS IN SWAHILI?
"However, so far as I can tell, there has been no statement from anyone who can
say that she was informed."
Sue, I sat across from her in a pub in the UK. I talked to her at
length. This was referenced in the conversation by me. She was aware of it.
"2. Did Claudia want to do season five? She stated before, during and after
that she wants to do B-5. Why should I believe she doesn't?"
I think -- and this is speculation -- she wanted to do S5, but she wanted
a pay raise, something confirmed by her comments in the TV Guide Online
magazine. Go read it, she wanted an increase that none of the other cast
members were getting. (And as part of that interview, she says that all the
other male actors were paid more than her, which is, by the way, an absolute
and outright fabrication.)
"Is there some reason that a new contract couldn't be drawn up for a few
episodes such as has been done with Tracy Scoggins?"
If she wouldn't go for 18 episodes at 18 episodes pay, why should she go
for 8 episodes at 8 episodes pay? At the point we're talking about, we got
every indication that she did not want to return to the show, period. There
were no phone calls from her or her people saying so, nothing, absolute
silence. Now, you'll pardon me for being realistic, but I've got a show to
run, and that means we have to have scripts ready 4-5 weeks prior to shooting,
and the first one was due the day we GOT this information.
What was I supposed to do? Say, "Oh, no, wait around for a few months,
until right before filming, so we'll have plenty of time for her to come back
to us. We won't have any scripts, of course...." No. I needed that gap in
the command structure filled from the very first episode. So now what do I do?
Bring in a character for 2 episodes, then turn the show upside down AGAIN and
get rid of Tracy? Because we don't make this show for a hell of a lot of
money; every dime goes to the show. If we brought back Ivanova for 8, we'd
have to fire Tracy.
No...it's real simple, Sue. Whatever was in her head at the time, the
reality is that she walked off the show. She made a deliberate, conscious
decision to go. My obligation is to the 10 other members of our cast, the 200
people in our crew, and the 5 million viewers to move on and make the best show
I can. There were no misunderstandings here. It was a business decision on
her part.
Now can we please, finally, drop this, so I can put in the time I'm
spending arguing here back into making the show? Or do you still want to doubt
the veracity of me, my crew, John Copeland, and others just so you can give
Claudia the benefit of the doubt?
jms
[ Continued in next section -- BB ]
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