[LUGSB] tools for programming

Thu Dec 11 21:56:59 EST 2003

True:) That annoys me too, but then I dont know of any
other free package for statistical and scientific
programming besides it, on Linux. Does any1 else on
the group know of any? And/or something which allows
us at the end allows to convert the code to C or Java 
(if Im not asking too much :-) )

By the way, what are some other "handy" "general
purpose" tools in general that people use such as
Matlab, R or even the one Prof. Zadok discusses
(autoconfig tools and bcc) in his 376 class, which can
make life of a programmer easyyy:)

Amol

--- Vinay Pai <vinay at cs.sunysb.edu> wrote:
> > I have been using matlab and 'R': a gnu software
> for
> > things like imaging, statistical programming etc
> and
> 
> Allow me to vent  little here, but I had to use R
> for a course homework,
> and thought it was largely cool, but was exteremely
> annoyed by their
> choice of "<-" instead of "=" for assignment. Not
> only does it break with
> pretty much every other language out there, its
> annoying to type being two
> characters, one of which is a shifted character and
> one is not.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> lugsb at fsl.cs.sunysb.edu
> http://www.fsl.cs.sunysb.edu/mailman/listinfo/lugsb

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>From mgraffam at mathlab.sunysb.edu Thu Dec 11 22:13:56 2003
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:14:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Graffam <mgraffam at mathlab.sunysb.edu>
To: Linux Users Group at Stony Brook <lugsb at fsl.cs.sunysb.edu>
Subject: Re: [LUGSB] What do you think would be a good "first programming
 language", and why? 
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Erez Zadok wrote:

> In message <Pine.GSO.4.44.0312111822340.20475-100000 at SunRa.mathlab.sunysb.edu>, Michael Graffam writes:
> >
>
> > Bash is better than Java by far. If a would-be programmer is familiar
> > with Linux/UNIX and familiar with the command-line and can form pipeline
>
> Bash is useful in a class where you teach unix tools and such.  But not as a
> starting programming language.

Considering the context of this question being asked on a Linux user's
group mailing list, I think the context of "unix tools" is more than
related.

Bash doesn't have forced data types, while it does have the full
complement of looping facilities and functions. The important aspects of
computer programming, can be taught in an environment that is native to
the UNIX/Linux user: his shell.

And, of course, REAL tasks can be performed. The user can write complex
scripts/programs to grok a whole lot of real data out of their ps table
or out of /proc.

For the user that wants to learn how to program in order to accomplish
real tasks, rather than shuffling around meaningless bits and abstract
classes -- I don't think that you can beat the shell.

For programmers looking to one day write their own kernel or OS loader,
sure -- a different language choice is in order.

> Shell scripts have all sorts of side effects, and often won't show errors
> clearly.  Think about an errant unclosed quote markers: the error is on one
> line, but the "bug" is manifested elsewhere.

In my experience, most beginning programmers don't understand the error
messages of most languages anyhow. That goes for virtually every compiler,
and most interpreted languages. I'll grant that the shell has the
disadvantage that it doesn't have the full complement of programming
and debugging tools.

But one can teach a UNIX tools course (cat, ls, ps, etc) with pipelines
and redirection, and naturally grow and introduction to programming by
teaching programs as sequences of commands (the traditional "script")
and then introduce logic and looping, etc.

It may not be suited to the formalism of the university, but it is an
effective way to convey the concepts of programming to the 'user' casually
interested in the subject. If the user LIKES bash scripting, one can
quickly point them to Perl or Lisp for a taste of the 'real' thing.

> > I don't think so -- not if the instructor really knows C. I took C
> > programming as an intro course to programming at a community college. I
> > was already a decent Pascal programmer by that point, but I knew several
> > newbie students that did just fine.
>
> There will always be a few hacker geeks in every class who thrive on
> difficult stuff.  But try to teach C to the masses: English and History and
> Bio majors.  You won't be in Kansas any more.

Well, actually the people I had in mind certainly weren't hacker geeks,
more like TV and vacuum cleaner technicians. But, suffice it to say, the
C class was open to everyone as a first programming class so I imagine
that they had their English and Bio majors.

This was in a junior college, however, where the class had maybe 35
students in it. The instructor knew C very well, and was able to spend
time lending an eye to find syntax errors.

I honestly don't think that C as a first language is bad, though
the university environment may be unable to teach it as such.