B5's Plot holes
b5jms-owner at cs.columbia.edu
b5jms-owner at cs.columbia.edu
Sun Nov 19 06:38:06 EST 1995
Subject: B5's Plot holes
+ 1: Nov 8, 1995: bmccrach at chardonnay.niagara.com (Brent B. McCrackin)
2: Nov 8, 1995: fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller )
3: Nov 9, 1995: Robert Holland <rholland at triton.mayfield.hp.com>
4: Nov 9, 1995: scottm at leapfrog.almac.co.uk (Malinda)
5: Nov 10, 1995: kenyon at pogo.den.mmc.com (Warren Edward Kenyon)
+ 6: Nov 11, 1995: Robert Holland <rholland at triton.mayfield.hp.com>
* 7: Nov 11, 1995: straczynski at genie.geis.com
8: Nov 11, 1995: fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller )
9: Nov 11, 1995: Teresa Lhotka <kemaris at winternet.com>
10: Nov 12, 1995: BHendrsn at kirk.microsys.net (Brian & Lori Henderson)
11: Nov 12, 1995: strueb at aol.com (Strueb)
12: Nov 12, 1995: Morgan <Morgan at sidhen.demon.co.uk>
13: Nov 12, 1995: ssd at nevets.oau.org (Steven S. Dick)
14: Nov 13, 1995: jthorpe1 at cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe)
15: Nov 13, 1995: Matthew W Buckley <mbbi+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
16: Nov 13, 1995: jaduchar at mtu.edu (JEREMY A. DU-CHARME)
17: Nov 13, 1995: fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller )
18: Nov 14, 1995: emery2 at ix.netcom.com (Emery Calame )
19: Nov 14, 1995: jthorpe1 at cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe)
20: Nov 14, 1995: jsheen at levstu.iii.net (Leviathan)
21: Nov 14, 1995: kylinn at aol.com (Kylinn)
22: Nov 14, 1995: dmbrouwe at undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Dale Brouwer)
23: Nov 14, 1995: dmbrouwe at undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Dale Brouwer)
24: Nov 14, 1995: Bard Lite <mmay at mcd.intel.com>
25: Nov 14, 1995: fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller )
26: Nov 15, 1995: s9407307 at yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au (Capt. Sheridan)
27: Nov 15, 1995: antar at wolfenet.com (BGC)
28: Nov 15, 1995: kingpin at primenet.com (Michael J. King Sr.)
29: Nov 15, 1995: kingpin at primenet.com (Michael J. King Sr.)
30: Nov 15, 1995: isaackuo at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Isaac Ji Kuo)
31: Nov 15, 1995: fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller )
32: Nov 15, 1995: Teresa Lhotka <kemaris at winternet.com>
33: Nov 15, 1995: Brian 'Doc' O'Neill <oneill at cs.uml.edu>
34: Nov 16, 1995: royd at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Roy Daniel)
35: Nov 16, 1995: tmclean at chat.carleton.ca (Tom McLean)
36: Nov 16, 1995: emery2 at ix.netcom.com (Emery Calame )
37: Nov 16, 1995: fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller )
38: Nov 16, 1995: fullerdr at falcon.jmu.edu (Deborah R. Fuller)
39: Nov 17, 1995: bancroft at shoebox.win-uk.net (Bancroft Gracey)
40: Nov 17, 1995: dball at ix.netcom.com (Josh Ball )
41: Nov 17, 1995: paul.smith at cdc.com (Paul Smith)
42: Nov 17, 1995: anrwlias at netcom.com (A.X. Lias)
43: Nov 17, 1995: Matthew W Buckley <mbbi+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
44: Nov 17, 1995: Matthew W Buckley <mbbi+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
45: Nov 17, 1995: kingpin at primenet.com (Michael J. King Sr.)
46: Nov 17, 1995: speters at samsun.us.oracle.com (Stephen Peters)
47: Nov 18, 1995: uutalaa at biology.queensu.ca (Allen Uutala)
48: Nov 18, 1995: fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller )
49: Nov 18, 1995: Matthew W Buckley <mbbi+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
50: Nov 18, 1995: dstinson at ix.netcom.com (David Stinson)
51: Nov 18, 1995: fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller )
52: Nov 18, 1995: fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller )
53: Nov 18, 1995: emery2 at ix.netcom.com (Emery Calame )
54: Nov 18, 1995: Matthew W Buckley <mbbi+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
55: Nov 18, 1995: drakkir at texas.net (Drakkir)
56: Nov 18, 1995: uutalaa at biology.queensu.ca (Allen Uutala)
57: Nov 18, 1995: s9407307 at yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au (Capt. Sheridan)
+ 58: Nov 19, 1995: maria at mvuts.mv.att.com (-montalvo m.a.)
* 59: Nov 19, 1995: straczynski at genie.geis.com
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From: bmccrach at chardonnay.niagara.com (Brent B. McCrackin)
Lines: 19
In article <47oejq$ihf at hprcl192.mayfield.hp.com> Robert Holland <rholland at triton.mayfield.hp.com> writes:
>
> That's my point. Some people like the Emperor's new clothes and turn a blind
> eye to the flaws in the fabric. The closer you look at the B5 weave, the more
> you detect its loose-knit nature. This thing is unravelling at the seams...
There is an important action that must be taken upon by the audience of Science
Fiction (whether reading or viewing). It is known as 'Suspension of Disbelief'.
Most SF has so many plot holes and unbelievable portions in it that any analysis
will blow it apart.
Don't try to pick B5 to pieces, just enjoy it. JMS is doing his best, and I feel
that most of us here can agree that its better than most.
--
Brent Bryan McCrackin
St. Catharines, Ontario
bmccrach at chardonnay.niagara.com
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From: Robert Holland <rholland at triton.mayfield.hp.com>
Lines: 73
kenyon at pogo.den.mmc.com (Warren Edward Kenyon) wrote:
>Not clear here.
>
>Just hate a show (and its creator) because you BELIEVE it won't live up
>to full potential? Pretty narrow thinking.
Your point, then, is that what we see is absolutely the best work
JMS can write and produce. Am I correct?
We can measure whether B5 lives up to its full potential fairly easily
by comparing what JMS said about his creation, and what we see on the
tube.
Belief and hate have nothing to do with it.
>I really have to wonder, and I would like a concise answer, as to why
>you and others who obviously hate the show continue to watch it.
Your assumption is wrong. If we hated B5 we would not watch it.
But we do watch it and hope for better.
Better as in what is shown on tv is self-explanatory and requires
no retconning in this newsgroup, or by JMS.
For instance, how do you feel about the new Bonanza-like quality
of the third season? I'm seeing a lot of people upset by the change.
Personally, I found ep 301 pretty entertaining. Good tv entertainment
values. Holes? Sure, but if you admit there are holes all the way back
to the pilot, you can enjoy the show for what it is.
If you refuse to admit holes, and we point them out to you, then
don't get too upset with us, friend. It's not our creation.
>And
>then tell us all how much you hate it.
Those who hate the show watch Star Trek. You don't hear from them unless
you cross-post in their newsgroup.
>And then tell us all how much
>better you could do it.
Haven't seen anyone claim to write B5 better. Have seen many claim other
writers have written similar themes in their works. B5 is JMS's story, so
we hold his feet to the fire.
One thing we can do is analyze the themes in B5 and the way in which JMS
presented them. Just about everyone here participates in this type of
discussion. The flames erupt when one disagrees with another's analysis.
>And then never getting around to doing it.
Never get around to writing speculative scripts? That's frowned on here.
Never get around to writing B5 episodes? JMS is the sole writer in season
3, and if we wrote and produced our own it would be a copyright violation.
Your point is that because we do not write Babylon 5 we cannot critique it.
Concise answer? Bull.
>Sounds pretty elitist to me.
Well, what would you expect of elite media? :-) You know, it takes such
refinement to watch tv and post to newsgroups.
--RH
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From: straczynski at genie.geis.com
Lines: 5
When a movie or book is over, one can analyze the plot holes; right
now there are a few things that have to be paid off, but there aren't any
plot holes that I am aware of.
jms
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From: maria at mvuts.mv.att.com (-montalvo m.a.)
Lines: 24
In article <48lfvo$1o1 at news.texas.net>, Drakkir <drakkir at texas.net> wrote:
>fullert at ix.netcom.com (Theron Fuller ) wrote:
>
>[snipped without comment]
>>I'll throw out a very simple challenge to you. Tell us if "Ironheart's
>>gift" will play any further significant part in the Babylon 5 story
>>arc. And if so, predict which season, if any, Joe Straczynski will
>>integrate "Ironheart's gift" back into the story.
>
>This seems like a straw man to me, but I could be wrong. First of
>all, Ironheart's gift will play a significant part in the future, this
>has been strongly suggested in Deathwalker, MindWar, A Race Through
>Dark Places, A Spider in the Web and Divided Loyalties. I think a
>majority of viewers would agree with this point.
I don't agree. Ironheart's gift may well have been a red herring, part
of the buildup to make Talia look important before hitting her in the
chest with an ax. It may well be that the 'see you again in a million
years' part of the Ironheart story was the important thing. Or not.
It wouldn't really bother me if the Ironheart story never plays another
part in the series; it just makes the universe a little richer, knowing
he's out there, become.
Maria
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From: straczynski at genie.geis.com
Lines: 15
Re: Minbari lying...it has been established, repeatedly, that the
Minbari do lie *when it means saving someone else's honor*. That was
even stated, openly, in the very same episode about Sheridan's frame
job, "There All The Honor Lies." Londo says, right there, that the
Minbari will lie for a greater cause, another's honor. The same was done
in "The Quality of Mercy." Delenn fibbed about the ship in "Matters"
because in so doing, she saved Sheridan's honor.
This is not a plot hole, it's been established clearly in the series
on multiple occasions. We have never, ever, at any time said conclusively
that Minbari never, ever lie. This is another example of certain persons
simply not paying attention, and then blaming the show for their own lack
of continuity in attention.
jms
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