JMS on Compuserve: October 1, 1995
B5JMS Poster
b5jms-owner at shekel.mcl.cs.columbia.edu
Mon Oct 9 06:28:32 EDT 1995
Subject: JMS on Compuserve: October 1, 1995
+ 1: Oct 1, 1995: The Green Meddler <kilgalen at tde.com>
2: Oct 2, 1995: The Green Meddler <kilgalen at tde.com>
3: Oct 3, 1995: hackbod at ada.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn)
4: Oct 3, 1995: denebeim at deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim)
5: Oct 3, 1995: cornilse at cs.colorado.edu (Erik Cornilsen)
6: Oct 4, 1995: The Green Meddler <kilgalen at tde.com>
7: Oct 4, 1995: faa35 at dial.pipex.com (Jeannette Simpson)
8: Oct 4, 1995: denebeim at deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim)
9: Oct 4, 1995: navoff at xnet.com (J. Potts)
10: Oct 5, 1995: jegolf at MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf)
11: Oct 5, 1995: faa35 at dial.pipex.com (Jeannette Simpson)
12: Oct 5, 1995: Morgan <Morgan at sidhen.demon.co.uk>
13: Oct 5, 1995: The Green Meddler <kilgalen at tde.com>
14: Oct 5, 1995: The Green Meddler <kilgalen at tde.com>
15: Oct 5, 1995: jegolf at MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf)
16: Oct 5, 1995: hackbod at ada.CS.ORST.EDU (Dianne Hackborn)
17: Oct 5, 1995: daveshao at leland.Stanford.EDU (David Shao)
18: Oct 5, 1995: faa35 at dial.pipex.com (Jeannette Simpson)
19: Oct 5, 1995: corun at access2.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
20: Oct 6, 1995: jegolf at MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf)
21: Oct 6, 1995: raasch at roses (Christine Raasch)
22: Oct 6, 1995: navoff at xnet.com (J. Potts)
23: Oct 6, 1995: navoff at xnet.com (J. Potts)
24: Oct 6, 1995: faa35 at dial.pipex.com (Jeannette Simpson)
25: Oct 6, 1995: vinay at cc.gatech.edu (Vinay Pandey)
26: Oct 6, 1995: AltaB at ix.netcom.com (Alta Brewer)
27: Oct 6, 1995: Robin.Bornoff at brunel.ac.uk (Robin B Bornoff)
28: Oct 6, 1995: AltaB at ix.netcom.com (Alta Brewer)
29: Oct 6, 1995: jthorpe1 at cc.swarthmore.edu (jere7my tho?rpe)
30: Oct 6, 1995: Morgan <Morgan at sidhen.demon.co.uk>
31: Oct 6, 1995: faa35 at dial.pipex.com (Jeannette Simpson)
32: Oct 6, 1995: Morgan <Morgan at sidhen.demon.co.uk>
33: Oct 6, 1995: l.c.wright at rl.ac.uk (Lesley Wright)
34: Oct 6, 1995: The Green Meddler <kilgalen at tde.com>
35: Oct 6, 1995: denebeim at deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim)
36: Oct 6, 1995: AltaB at ix.netcom.com (Alta Brewer)
37: Oct 6, 1995: Robert Holland <rholland at triton.mayfield.hp.com>
38: Oct 6, 1995: Paul Skaggs <pskaggs at bnr.ca>
39: Oct 6, 1995: romana at copland.udel.edu (Laura Jane Swanson)
+ 40: Oct 6, 1995: lkabuaba at woodlawn.uchicago.edu (Virago)
* 41: Oct 6, 1995: straczynski at genie.geis.com
42: Oct 7, 1995: jegolf at MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf)
43: Oct 7, 1995: faa35 at dial.pipex.com (Jeannette Simpson)
44: Oct 7, 1995: faa35 at dial.pipex.com (Jeannette Simpson)
45: Oct 7, 1995: Robert Holland <rholland at triton.mayfield.hp.com>
46: Oct 7, 1995: jegolf at MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf)
47: Oct 7, 1995: jegolf at MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf)
48: Oct 7, 1995: robertm at jagunet.com (Robert Merritt)
49: Oct 7, 1995: kingpin at primenet.com (Michael J. King Sr.)
50: Oct 7, 1995: szgilalu at cassatt.ucdavis.edu ()
51: Oct 7, 1995: Morgan <Morgan at sidhen.demon.co.uk>
52: Oct 7, 1995: strueb at aol.com (Strueb)
53: Oct 7, 1995: strueb at aol.com (Strueb)
54: Oct 7, 1995: faa35 at dial.pipex.com (Jeannette Simpson)
55: Oct 7, 1995: cathyf at windrose.rice.edu (Catherine A. Foulston)
56: Oct 7, 1995: The Green Meddler <kilgalen at tde.com>
57: Oct 7, 1995: "Julian P. Graham" <jpgraham at starfury.demon.co.uk>
58: Oct 7, 1995: jegolf at MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf)
59: Oct 7, 1995: ian spedding <I-52 at sulaea.demon.co.uk>
60: Oct 7, 1995: Morgan <Morgan at sidhen.demon.co.uk>
61: Oct 8, 1995: raasch at roses (Christine Raasch)
62: Oct 8, 1995: denebeim at deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim)
63: Oct 8, 1995: denebeim at deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim)
64: Oct 8, 1995: denebeim at deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim)
+ 65: Oct 8, 1995: niffer at Glue.umd.edu (Jennifer J. Chandler)
* 66: Oct 8, 1995: straczynski at genie.geis.com
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Subj: Major B5/ST News Section: Star Trek
To: TazDevil, 102671,2161 Sunday, October 01, 1995 4:23:15 AM
From: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644#352360
Except, of course, that there wasn't "a quick directional change by offering a new enemy" (in second season)
because that enemy - the Shadows -- was in there right from the git-go, in season one...in "Chrysalis," which we shot
#12 even though it was aired #22 as our cliffhanger, and in "Signs and Portents," short shortly thereafter. So it was
always there, and has always been there...they're the primary antagonist, in a philosophical sense, throughout a
major part of the story.
"...and the mutation of another primary character." This, also, was in the outline of the story from the very first
episode onward; it's *important* to the story, and wasn't done for any of the reasons you cite. (The only change here
was that Delenn was originally planned to be a male character, if androgynous, which emerged female from the
chrysalis, but we couldn't get the male-altered voice to sound right, so this was dropped, though we kept the
more-human aspects.)
You seem to determine "the maturity of the show" by not offering real or substantive changes; but this show is
*about* change, and the choices we make that create those changes. There's this notion that if someone's the
captain, he has to stay the captain all the time; which is the element that many ST fans criticize in TNG as to why
Riker stayed first-officer for seven years, which would kill any other career.
So it's not a reset, it's an advancement of the storyline...look at Londo as we first saw him, and now; ditto for
G'Kar...we're talking here major, substantive changes. That aspect is at the very core of the story. You really can't
look at this as you would a regular episodic drama in that one respect; "Oh, they just changed characters, so they're
just starting all over again." That's not the intent at all.
"the show (TNG) stayed with its basic core of characters and followed a similar structure...B5 episodes seem to
detract from this formula." Which is precisely the intent. I don't like formula, or predictability, or to lock down a
structure and never change it...that's not life, and I try to make this show emulate life. People change, die, get
promoted, demoted, transferred, corrupted, redeemed...change, for me, is the *drama* of the story; to stay static and
unchanging the reverse of that. It's *process*, and I find process fascinating.
"I guess patience is a virtue." Well, I have to say that if you're waiting for B5 to settle down into a predictable,
unchanging formula, you're going to have a long wait ahead of you, because that's not in the cards. The changes and
developments only pick up greater speed and ramifications the deeper we go into the storyline.
jms
(PS...as for "all or some of the credit" for the new SF shows going to ST, much as one might wish that were true,
it isn't. Otherwise you'd've had a lot more of them in the last 30 years. I've been in meetings with network and studio
execs, and one reason it took us 5 years to sell B5 was because, as we were told verbatim, "There's no market in TV
for SF other than Trek; the market won't sustain more than one SF show like that; people don't want SF, they want
ST." It was used, repeatedly, to justify why you couldn't do these kinds of shows...and I'd point out that B5 is the
FIRST SF show in 30 years, since ST, to be set in the far future, with mankind as a spacefaring civilization, and with
a fully worked out cosmology of other races, politics, and governments...and particularly one of the very few to go
past two seasons in general. Now you're getting more SF on the air because the networks have finally seen that ST
does NOT have a death-grip on TV SF, and other shows, like B5 and X-Files *can* survive.
(Certainly it was never ST's intent for this to happen, and I'm not saying that it is or was; but this has definitely
been the result, and the ST shadow has been something for other SF shows to overcome; it has not made the
process easier, only more difficult. How many American-made space SF series have gone past 3 seasons other
than ST? It's after 4 seasons that the networks/studios begin making back their money, and since the answer to that
is "virtually none," you begin to see why they've been reluctant to do more than stick their toes in over the last three
decades.)
Subj: B5/ST News Section: Babylon 5
To: Jeannette Fornadel, 76371,3057 Saturday, September 30, 1995 10:49:14 PM
From: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644#352249
I don't tend to leave out things in my stories, particularly B5, as much as morph them into something else if I feel
it'd work better a different way. For any writer to be so hidebound to stick to every single tiny element of the outline,
once one is at the script stage (or the novel writing stage) is foolish, and I can't think of anyone who doesn't diverge to
one degree or another.
For me, an outline is basically a series of directions on a map; get here, turn *right*, take highway 407 to here,
get off and proceed south. But if you get into a part of your trip, and suddenly see that there's a fork in the road you
hadn't anticipated that'll cut hours off your trip, you'd be foolish not to take it. Non-writers never understand that; they
only see the work when it's done, not the process, which is alien to them.
If you make a course correction, you have to make sure everything still tracks with your goal, natch, or risk
getting lost along the way...but to the "experience" part of your question...that's the instinct that keeps you ever
heading toward your destination. That comes only with time. And I've been at this a LONG time.
jms
Subj: Wolf 359 Update 1995/96 Section: Babylon 5
To: SysOp Dupa T. Parrot, 70040,104 Saturday, September 30, 1995 10:49:17 PM
From: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644#352250
I had exactly 90 minutes in Chicago, 87 of which were spent explaining to security people why I was carrying
these knives in my carry-on luggage....
jms
Subj: Midpoint Section: Babylon 5
To: Jeannette Fornadel, 76371,3057 Saturday, September 30, 1995 10:49:23 PM
From: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644#352251
Well, of course, in the best case scenario, after the series has run its course, the theory is to try and get *out* of
TeeVee and back into novels and plays.
jms
Subj: Harlan 'tooned Section: Babylon 5
To: Ray Pelzer, 70475,1263 Saturday, September 30, 1995 10:31:26 PM
From: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644#352240
Harlan is a *huge* fan of Pinky and the Brain. As it happens, I know the actor who does one of the two voices (I
can never remember if he's Pinky or the Brain...I think the Brain...Maurice LeMarche), and had him call Harlan as his
character. They did competing Brains.
jms
Subj: Majel Barrett on B5 Section: Star Trek
To: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644Saturday, September 30, 1995 10:31:31 PM
From: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644#352241
Thanks. What's compelling, for me, is that the reason the original Star Trek worked so well is that the actors did
a great job portraying those characters...and ended up becoming tagged as being those characters, so in the long
run were hurt because they couldn't get other work. But they were able to make these characters work so well
*because they were terrific actors*. So if you give a Walter Koenig or others another kind of role, they'll do just as
excellent a job with that as with what went before.
So the part for Majel will, as stated, be quite different.
Glad you like the final four; "Inquisitor" is also very much a favorite of ours, and even though it has far fewer effects
than the episodes on either side of it, lots of folks here consider it possibly our best episode. And yes, the impact of
"Twilight" is pretty much what you describe...just sort of a stunned silence, and lots of people have said they didn't
want to talk about it for a while afterward, being very moved by it.
Re: the decision to hold back the final 4...creatively, it was a pain in the ass, because I wanted them out in July,
so people could consider the implications. But WB felt that it would give us a leg up on the third season debut, let us
build some momenum with 9 eps in a row rather than just 6-7. There's an element of truth to that. So I guess it's a
wash....
jms
Subj: Majel Barrett on B5 Section: Star Trek
To: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644Sunday, October 01, 1995 4:23:05 AM
From: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644#352358
That's weird...I'd sent this to Mary Taylor, and it ended up being sent to myself...I think I used a wrong
commmand in Tapcis....
jms
Subj: Origins of Hokey Pokey Section: Babylon 5
To: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644Saturday, September 30, 1995 8:42:01 PM
From: John M. Kahane, 102664,773 #352116
Hullo, Joe,
Got a question for you about "A Voice in the Wilderness." In that episode, Londo tells Draal and Delenn about
the song that parents sing to their children, the Hokey Pokey, and tells them that he can't make any sense out of it
after seven days of examining it.
I was watching an episode of READING RAINBOW (I've been laid up with a bad cold of late), and saw that there
was a bit explaining the origin of the song. The song goes back to the days of slavery. Slave were only allowed to
bathe on Saturday nghts and the water temperature was something that the slaves had to test since they had to be
careful. That's the part that's the origin of the song, apparently.
Did you actually know about this, and if so, was that the relevance of the whole song and Londo's not being overly
familiar with the significance of the song? It strikes me, in the aftermath of the events of the Council meeting in "The
Long, Twilight Struggle," and some of the other stuff that we've seen involving Londo that the whole thing is somewhat
ironic.
jmk
Subj: Origins of Hokey Pokey Section: Babylon 5
To: John M. Kahane, 102664,773 Saturday, September 30, 1995 10:49:02 PM
From: J. Michael Straczynski, 71016,1644#352252
I've actually heard several variations on what the song means; my guess is that the real origins have been so
reinterpreted and made-up over time that we may never know the actual basis...what you heard is as valid as just
about anything else.
jms
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From: lkabuaba at woodlawn.uchicago.edu (Virago)
Lines: 91
In article <4525r4$bfc at flood.xnet.com>, J. Potts <navoff at xnet.com> wrote:
>Some spoiler space for "Comes the Inquisitor".....
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>In article <451uej$dko at Venus.mcs.com>, J.M.Egolf <jegolf at MCS.COM> wrote:
>>jegolf at MCS.COM (J.M.Egolf) wrote:
>>>Sebastian (male) was trying to insist that Delenn (female) was fulfilling
>>>pre-set roles. Her struggle to have him perceive her as a person, not a
>>>role (even one she supposedly chose) had emotional resonance for me. He
>>>was accusing her of collaborating with her oppressors -- another
>>>accusation that has emotional resonance more for women (IMHO) than for
>>>men. The phrase "sleeping with the enemy" more often refers to women than
>>>men. Women are more likely to be involved and to remain in an abusive
>>>heterosexual relationship than men. etc. etc.
>>
>>In article <451f3q$1o at soap.news>,
>>Jeannette Simpson <faa35 at dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>>Come to think of it, you may have a point here. I wrote a poem when I
>>>was about 14 years old which ended with the words, "Go find out what
>>>you are, don't tell me what I am." Strange that. I remember always
>>>being frustrated and angered by the attempts of adults to force me
>>>into a socially accepted role as a young female.
>>
>>My mother and I used to have these arguments, when I was a teenager:
>>She'd object to something I'd done by saying, "But you can't *do* that!
>>GIRLS don't *do* that!" To which I'd reply, "Then fine, I'm not a girl."
>>
>>I mean, If A then B, if B then C, if A then C -- and I'd already done it.
>
>
>Hmmm, I guess that's where you and I differ. I was never told I couldn't
>do something because I was female. But then I've also had some very
>strong female role models. My paternal grandmother, widowed and with
>2 children, moved half way across the country, away from everyone and
>everything she had known to raise my father and his sister by herself.
>This was back in the 1920's. My mother was also a great one for tackling
>whatever project took her fancy, regardless of whether it was "appropriate"
>for a woman. She and I managed our small farm by ourselves for the nine
>months my father had before retirement in another state. If there was
>a book in the library explaining how to do something, she was set. *I*
>decide what I want to do, who I want to be and I've never felt trapped
>or forced into someone else's idea of what I *should* be.
>
That's wonderful.
I have never met a single person, male or female, who could honestly say
"I've never felt trapped or forced into someone else's idea of what I
*should* be." I know people who have escaped traps like that, but I
didn't think it was possible to avoid them entirely. If you're telling
the truth, you are an amazingly lucky person, with parents and teachers
of superhuman wisdom and restraint. Be thankful. And don't mistake other
people's misfortune for weakness.
I have to say, though, it wasn't the actual questioning in "Comes the
Inquisitor" that got me in the gut. The male perception/female role
thing didn't even occur to me; I just saw Sebastian punishing Delenn for
his own failures, and I suppose it's possible to make a m/f thing out of
that too, but I'm not going to. My problem is the Vorlons. They're the
ones who set a psychopath like that on Delenn, who agreed to it, and
Sheridan, who didn't. That kind of arrogance is what gets me. This too has
male/female overtones, but it's more of a parent/child or experienced
guide/newbie thing; any relationship where you need someone who is
more powerful or experienced than you. No matter how kind the more
powerful person is, there's going to be a certain amount of resentment
on the part of the weaker one. And when the stronger party is arrogant
and impassive... well, I identified with both Delenn and Sheridan. And I
was left with the strong urge to kick Kosh's ass. I think they were
too. And I think there's some resentment and frustration there that
wasn't there before.
The Vorlons are not benevolent. We do not have a relationship between
equals. We need them to fight against the Shadows. This galls. I think
it will continue to until they leave or we break with them.
--
Ligia Abuabara
lkabuaba at midway.uchicago.edu
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From: straczynski at genie.geis.com
Lines: 13
Of course, bear in mind that there *is* no correct answer to
Sebastian's question...because no matter what answer you give, the
question will be repeated. It's a process, not a goal, designed to
tear down the artifices we construct around ourselves until we're left
facing ourselves, not our roles. At some point the "answer," such as it
is, must transcend language.
Since the episode aired, I've received many notes from philosophy
teachers and religious instructors and those who ran the Synanon game
noting that they've used that technique as well, or intend to do so from
now on.
jms
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From: niffer at Glue.umd.edu (Jennifer J. Chandler)
Lines: 19
In article <199510062334.AA283722486 at relay1.geis.com>,
<straczynski at genie.geis.com> wrote:
> Of course, bear in mind that there *is* no correct answer to
>Sebastian's question...because no matter what answer you give, the
>question will be repeated. It's a process, not a goal, designed to
>tear down the artifices we construct around ourselves until we're left
>facing ourselves, not our roles. At some point the "answer," such as it
>is, must transcend language.
>
> Since the episode aired, I've received many notes from philosophy
>teachers and religious instructors and those who ran the Synanon game
>noting that they've used that technique as well, or intend to do so from
>now on.
>
> jms
It struck me as being a lot like a Scientology Audit, with a short-circuiting
E-meter. :-)
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From: straczynski at genie.geis.com
Lines: 6
BTW, to Jeannette, Laura, JM Egolf, Sarah, all the others, thanks
for openly discussing what are surely difficult issues; it's been very
instructive, and helpful for the future. And the discussion itself has
been moving and insightful; thanks for risking and giving in this way.
jms
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