JMS on CompuServe (May 14, 1996) *POSSIBLE SPOILERS* 1/2
Brent Barrett
bbarrett at speedlink.com
Tue May 14 13:49:41 EDT 1996
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WARNING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The following posts may contain SPOILERS for
upcoming Babylon 5 episodes.
Continue at your own risk.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL IS THE COPYRIGHT OF THE
RESPECTIVE MESSAGE AUTHORS AND CANNOT BE
REPRODUCED IN ANY FORM WITHOUT THE EXPRESSED
PERMISSION OF THE AUTHOR.
Note that JMS has expressed his public permission
that all of his messages may be reproduced freely.
I give permission for my summaries to be reposted in
any form, however I reserve all rights to them and
the right to revoke this permission at any time.
[ Summary of subjects in this section: ]
Sb: #504729-<<War Without End>>
Sb: #504893-Joe an atheist?
Sb: #505068-Joe an atheist?
Sb: #504912-Joe an atheist?
Sb: #505008-Joe an atheist?
Sb: #505074-I. & E. Opinion
Sb: #504889-#<<Interludes...>>
Sb: #504978->>Interludes<<
Sb: #504884-<<Interludes Question>>
Sb: #504932-<I&E - special ship?>
Sb: #504868-<Rage's Thots: I&E>
#: 504729 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 00:11:39
Sb: #504538-#<<War Without End>>
Fm: TRENT K. JOHNSON
Trent very impressed. Trent not good at waitings for next week, but Trent very
impressed.
"Cool!"
I know you said you were going to start pulling some triggers, but man, are you
related to "The Rifleman", or what? Bravo!
Trent/ReAnimators
^^^^ CD-RMES
#: 505099 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 15:34:42
Sb: #504729-<<War Without End>>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Thanks. I like Zathras...he's just nuts.
jms
#: 504893 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-May-96 08:02:49
Sb: #504534-#Joe an atheist?
Fm: SHANE S. SHELLENBARGER
>>Here's a little interesting aside...I used to write for Madeline Murry
O'Hare's magazine, AMERIAN ATHEIST, back when I was in college. I did a humor
column, the occasional article, that sort of thing.<<
Joe,
The last thing I heard was that O'Hare was missing. Have you heard
anything different?
Shane
#: 505132 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-May-96 16:14:47
Sb: #504893-Joe an atheist?
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Not only haven't I heard anything new, I hadn't even *learned* that she
was missing until about a week ago...the perils of being buried alive in a
story.
jms
[ Summary: More discussion of the U.S. Constitution and the separation of
chruch and state. ]
#: 505133 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-May-96 16:14:49
Sb: #505068-Joe an atheist?
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Exactly. The constitution (this is from memory, so I may get a word out
of place) stipulates "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment
of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof." Which means the state
should have nothing to say about it one way or the other. It's a personal
matter for each individual. It's a bit of wisdom that goes back about 2,000
years; "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's; and to god that which is
god's."
That the line gets blurred sometimes is really in violation of what the
bible seemed to suggest. The pharisees were synonymous with hypocrites, they
had allied themselves with the government of the time, and that was their
downfall in the final analysis; the state invariably corrupts religion. The
overall sense was to keep away from the government, to strive for something
higher. These days a fair amount of religion has become mass theater, much in
violation of the suggestion to "go into your closet to pray," and the
suggestions that those who made a show of their beliefs were not exactly role
models.
The state should be religion-neutral, neither encouraging nor
discouraging. Sometimes this is unfair to one group or another, but as long as
it does so consistently, not favoring either side, then it's okay. The best
compromise is one in which neither side feels it's entirely won. (Yes, some of
the questions of where and when religious artifacts can be put up stray into
grey areas...but at least the patriotism of those involved is not usually up
for grabs. During one Presidential election, then Vice-President Bush, on a
campaign stop in Chicago, was asked about his reaction to atheists, and he
said, "Well, that's certainly their choice, though I don't see how anybody
could call them patriots, since this is one nation under god." Substitute
catholics or jews or moslems or japanese or irish for atheists in that
sentence, and you'd have a firestorm that would've brought down the whole
campaign. Here nobody even seemed to notice.)
jms
#: 504912 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-May-96 09:08:41
Sb: #504731-#Joe an atheist?
Fm: AL LIPSCOMB
Joe,
The argument made that anyone who does not belive in God would not be able to
judge right from wrong is contradicted by the very book (The Bible) that many
Christains hold as without error:
The letter to the Romans, Chapter two starting at verse fourteen:
(Indeed when gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by
the the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the
law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their
hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,a nd their thoughts now
accusiong, now even defending them.) [NIV]
This states that the law of God is built into people. It also goes on to
indicate that all people have a conscience that tells them when they are doing
wrong as well as letting them know what is right. This new notion being put
forth about no law without God has many holes in its logic. The entire book or
Romans is about law, and how bad it is.
As far as I can tell the largest problem we have in this country is that we
have moved from a justice system to a legal system. If any lesson can be
learned from the first five books of the OT it should be about how the law
started out with ten simple rules. Then as the people found ways to skirt the
letter of the law (instead of working within the spirit of the law) new laws
were added. The people went from ten laws to six-hundred and fourteen.
In this country we crank out new laws each year to plug the holes in the laws
from the years before. It seems that we cannot rely on our judges to do what is
fair, nor on the administration to do what is right. So we hope that by
micro-managing the system through laws we can retain our freedom.
Well enough of that rabbit trail. Is any of this making any sense?
#: 505134 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-May-96 16:14:52
Sb: #504912-Joe an atheist?
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Exactly. That's a *very* good point; I'd forgotten about Romans 2:14.
There are sections that imply that those who don't hear The Gospels will be
judged by their own actions and their own conscience, which implies the
presence of a conscience (as does the quote you cite) even in the absence of a
"transcendental" being, that is, knowing right from wrong. Excellent point.
"...the largest problem we have in this country is that we have moved
from a justice system to a legal system."
Wow...I've never heard that put so simply and so succinctly. And it's
absolutely correct. Nicely done.
jms
#: 505008 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-May-96 13:11:03
Sb: #504731-#Joe an atheist?
Fm: DANIEL M. UPTON
>> Your statement is that without a "transcendental" outside force, a deity, to
tell us right from wrong, that we have no way of distinguishing good from evil,
Mother Theresa from Hitler. That's what you *said*. Now, I don't buy into the
deity business. Therefore, *by your definition*, I'm one of those folks who
can't distinguish a humanitarian from a mass murderer.<<
No. You keep reading meanings into my words that I did not put there. What I
said was that without a transcendent standard judgments about right and wrong
must be based on human opinion. I heard about a talk show that had a priest, a
rabbi and a liberal protestant minister from a denomination which denied the
absolute authority of the Bible. When they were asked to comment on some issue
of the day the priest cited the cannons of the Church and the rabbi quoted from
the Talmud and the protestant said, "well, it seems to me...". The priest and
the rabbi had something outside themselves and greater than themselves to
appeal to. If you argue with the priest you are not really arguing with him
but with the entire edifice of the Roman Catholic Church, which he believes
possesses the divinely granted authority to issue infallible judgments. The
rabbi has thousands of years of tradition laid down by great men of God, a God
who has invested their deliberations with the power to bind the consciences of
his people. All the protestant had was "it seems to me".
Dan^^^^
danupton at blueridge.net
#: 505135 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-May-96 16:14:56
Sb: #505008-Joe an atheist?
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Yes, Daniel, but you keep dancing away from the fact that the catholic
church, and the Jewish religion, have also had changes and schisms and
fractures, as the result of *changes in human opinion*. If there were an
eternal truth being practiced, then it should be unchanging. But religion is
*constantly* changing because of alterations in social mores and opinions. The
role of women in the synagogue. The changes from latin to english mass. The
final decision by the church that maybe the sun *doesn't* rotate around the
earth. The ordination of women rabbis. The dietary restrictions as set forth
in the Bible.
Heck, Daniel, the Old Testament goes on and on at great length to explain
how the laws work, that the laws are the only ways to get over to the pleasant
side of the afterlife...then suddenly in the new testament it's all, "No, no,
forget the laws, THIS is how you do it." What, god was just kidding for the
preceding couple thousand years?
Go back to the early Catholic records, read the Dead Sea Scrolls, the
early Roman records, and you'll find that the practice of Christianity today is
utterly unlike its early history. Religion changes as the world around it
changes...or it dies.
The constant, unchanging religion you cite doesn't exist in reality. It's
ALL a case of "it seems to me." Every time a new pope comes in, you get a
massive case of it.
jms
[ Summary: Enjoyed "Interludes & Examinations" and asks if the Vorlons will
be sending a replacement. ]
#: 505136 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-May-96 16:14:58
Sb: #505074-I. & E. Opinion
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Thanks. Yes, Delenn mentions in the tag that the Vorlons will be sending
someone to quietly replace Kosh. It's a bit darker character.
jms
[ Summary: Asks some questions created by watching "Interludes &
Examinations." 1) Was there more to what Sebastian said about dying alone
and without "fanfare?" 2) Did Kosh "sacrifice himself to save DeLenn and
Sheridan?" 3) Is there any hope for Londo now? 4) Do Vorlons have
gender? 5) Does Morden have a horrible fate in store for him? ]
#: 505137 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 16:15:01
Sb: #504889-#<<Interludes...>>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Actually, Sebastian said that bit about dying alone to both Sheridan and
Delenn. Who knows, he may have known something....
Yes, if Kosh had run, which wasn't in his character in the first place,
someone else would've paid that price.
Londo still has chances, if he doesn't blow them. You'll see a bit more
about this in the two-parter.
Yes, some Vorlons do appear to us as female versions.
jms
#: 504978 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 12:30:21
Sb: #>>Interludes<<
Fm: MERYL YOURISH
Joe, one question about Kosh: Since the Shadows killed him, did they see him in
that now they know he was one of the Elder race? Or are they in the dark about
the Vorlons?
#: 505139 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 16:15:03
Sb: #504978->>Interludes<<
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Oh, no, the Shadows and the Vorlons know each other from way, way back.
jms
#: 504884 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 07:58:22
Sb: #503587-#<<Interludes Question>>
Fm: ANNE L. WARNER
Joe,
Not to disagree... You're right, but apparently you forgot that Londo told
Urza about Adira in Knives. "Oh, it ended badly, as love always does."
Anne
#: 505140 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 16:15:05
Sb: #504884-<<Interludes Question>>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
You're right; it was a sideways reference, without name, and I was
thinking of whether or not the character had been named since. I missed that
one.
jms
[ Summary: Asks if there were multiple Vorlons in the large Vorlon ship or
just one really big Vorlon. ]
#: 505141 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 16:15:07
Sb: #504932-<I&E - special ship?>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
There's a bunch in the big ship.
jms
#: 504868 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 07:53:27
Sb: #<Rage's Thots: I&E>
Fm: CHAD UNDERKOFFLER
Hidey-ho, all-- Rage's Thots time!
Rage's Thots is a collection of my thoughts about and/or caused by the current
episode of Babylon 5.
This week: INTERLUDES AND EXAMINATIONS
Let's go to the videotape.....
SPOILERSPACE, HO!
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
"We're picking up an energy surge!"
"Where?"
"It's a non-localized phenomenon!"
<*>
0
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
*(clutching his skull) Dear God, man! How do you *write* like that?!?
No ep-- I say, NO EP-- has hit me like this since bloody "Coming of Shadows."
In fact, I think I&E edges out CoS by a nose. Wow. This episode was *TIGHT*;
tighter than a miser's wallet. Damn.
*Londo. He's falling again... I'm sure we'll see part of his dream
come true now-- the Shadows over Centauri Prime. And I'm nigh positive he's
the one who brought them there, in search of revenge for Adira.
*Morden. Ed just exudes menace like slime, doesn't he? (I mean that
in the best possible way.) An interesting thought: What are the standing
Security orders re: Morden? It's obvious he paid off Dead Man #1 to let him
slide by... I'm betting Johhny wants him held for questioning, but I get the
feeling "shoot to maim" isn't outta line.
*Stephen & Garibaldi. What a perfect fufilment of the stim-discussion
they had in the previous ep. I'm glad Stephen had the strength and resolve to
turn away... but I wish Johnny could have gotten a word in edgewise.
*Delenn. I love her dearly, but this withholding of information crap
is gonna get us all keeled, man. <g> But she gave herself a reprieve with that
"dancing eyes of luv" look she gave Johnny after the Vorlons showed up. Man!
What I wouldn't give to be on the recieving end of that look! Bruce and Mira
really have this chemistry with is as strong as the best "romantic pairs" on TV
I can think of. (Dave-Maddy, the Harts, the Mad About You crew...)
*Johnny. I fully believe-- and please, nobody take this as denigration
of Michael O'Hare's talent-- that Sinclair could have pulled off the scene in
the hallway with Kosh. The energy, the anger, the desperation... SInclair has
always seemed a bit more laconic to me. If this one scene was the goal, then
the replacement at the top of Season 2 was *perfectly* justified.
*The hallway. Oh my God! Just wonderful. Shades of Star Wars,
Batman! You pulled this off, staying true to the mythic undercurrent of the
Confrontation. I was reminded of Elric the Technomage's/Gandalf's line: "Do
not meddle in the affairs of wizards; they are subtle and quick to anger."
<Disobedient.> "Up yours!"
*The dream. Sheridan's mind seems a bit quieter... the images stay
coherent. <g> Rance Howard as David Sheridan rocks. Rance Howard as David
Sheridan-cum-Kosh rocks, squared! Woo! A beautiful bit of dialogue... in
which Kosh starts to make sense... And more fodder for my idea that Bab5 is
all about the relationship between children and parents (or their analogues).
Think about this, especially in terms of the dream and the hallway: doesn't
Johnny sound like an angry teenager, and Kosh like a fuddy-duddy parent?
A lot of people seem to be taking the line "As long as you're around, a
part of me will be too," as some kind of mystical Kenobi or Spockian katra
schtick. Me, I don't buy it. I think Kosh was saying, what we'd say to our
kids (or spiritual kids, y'know) if we were at death's door. Sometimes a cigar
is just a cigar, people.
*Kosh. Okay, Joe, I see why you had to kill the big green freak. I
like it thematically, but dammit! Just when I was beginning to understand him!
I hope he took those three Shadows with him. The "non-localized phenomenon" bit
was a great chuckle (how the Minbari see the soul... appropos, no?). And I'm
*trusting* you on the energy wave bit, the one that swept over the station when
the K-man joined the Choir Invisible.
Finally, the bit about the SHIP diving into the sun was a moment of
perfect beauty.
Next week: WAR WITHOUT END, PART ONE
I'm all a-quiver!
Rage
Ranger of Washingdome, Blue Blaze Irregular
"I've been ionized, but I'm okay now."
#: 505142 S6/Babylon 5: Upcoming
13-May-96 16:15:09
Sb: #504868-<Rage's Thots: I&E>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Yes, there is something thematically present about growing up, and
parents, and coming of age that threads through the story.
And yes, there's the deliberate irony...that just as we finally start to
really hear from Kosh...he's gone. Snatched away just as we got close. Which
would add to the feelings.
Good analysis.
jms
[ Continued in next section -- BB ]
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