JMS on CompuServe (Nov 14, 1996) *POSSIBLE SPOILERS*
Brent Barrett
bbarrett at speedlink.com
Thu Nov 14 17:50:52 EST 1996
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WARNING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The following posts may contain SPOILERS for
upcoming Babylon 5 episodes.
Continue at your own risk.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL IS THE COPYRIGHT OF THE
RESPECTIVE MESSAGE AUTHORS AND CANNOT BE
REPRODUCED IN ANY FORM WITHOUT THE EXPRESSED
PERMISSION OF THE AUTHOR.
Note that JMS has expressed his public permission
that all of his messages may be reproduced freely.
I give permission for my summaries to be reposted in
any form, however I reserve all rights to them and
the right to revoke this permission at any time.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Archives of this material may be found at:
ftp://ftp.speedlink.com/pub/bbarrett/cis/
- or -
http://www.speedlink.com/bbarrett/b5/
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[ Summary of subjects in this section: ]
Sb: #610055-<<WHT Mr. Garibaldi?>>
Sb: #610130-<Rage's Thots: Teeps>
Sb: #610153-<The Hour Of The Wolf>
Sb: #610103-<<Fantastic Epic>>
Sb: #610174-<<Episodes are shorter?>
Sb: #610366-B5 at WindyCon
Sb: #610226-#Women's role in SF & B5
Sb: #609924-#B5 Bootleg question
Sb: #609944-Point Of No Return Rerun
Sb: #610440-Orientation
Sb: #610454-#<<WHT Mr. Garibaldi?>>
Sb: #610471-4 or 5? Be HONEST, jms
Sb: #610429-#John in the Underworld
Sb: #610570-#Women's role in SF & B5
Sb: #610509-<Rage's Thots: Teeps>
Sb: #610512-<Vorlon Consciousness>
[ Summary: Asks what side of the Shadow War JMS is on. ]
#: 610219 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 14:07:17
Sb: #610055-<<WHT Mr. Garibaldi?>>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Which side of the shadow war am I on? The third side.....
And thanks.
jms
[ Summary: Wonders if you can catch telepathy from close contact with
a telepath. ]
#: 610220 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 14:07:20
Sb: #610130-<Rage's Thots: Teeps>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
It's genetic, you can't "catch" it from someone.
jms
[ Summary: Asks if Centauri have "nice" prophetic dreams. ]
#: 610221 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 14:07:21
Sb: #610153-<The Hour Of The Wolf>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Yes, but those are rarely worth talking about....
jms
[ Summary: Thinks Babylon 5 is becoming "Machina ex Deus." ]
#: 610258 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 14:45:52
Sb: #610103-<<Fantastic Epic>>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
You really are misusing the term "deus ex machina," Jim. If you look up
what it actually means, it refers to something that comes up at the end of the
story, out of nowhere, and saves the situation. "God in a box" as it's usually
called. It's a cheat because it isn't referenced or built up earlier.
Telepathy is not a deus ex machina device in the show -- it's been there
since the pilot -- nor in SF as a genre. Telepathy has a long and respected
history in the SF genre, with "The Demolished Man" considered one of the
greatest landmarks of the field.
Nor is telepathy used in the show as the end-all solution, which *also*
negates the deus ex machina notion. Look at "Shadow Dancing." The teeps
helped, but it wasn't a case of shooting motionless ships...it was an all-out
bloody fight where our guys lost 3 ships for every 1 they killed. That, to me,
ain't deus ex *anything*.
For what it's worth, the latter half or two-thirds of year 4 takes a
much more hard SF approach to things, moving away from the myth cycle into
other territory.
jms
#: 610174 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 12:35:31
Sb: #<<Episodes are shorter?>
Fm: S J NICHOLSON
RE: "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi...
Why did this episode only last 5 minutes? I mean, I just sat down and it was
over... is this going to keep happening...? <g>
Sal --- "Time doesn't work the same way here."
#: 610431 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 18:36:54
Sb: #610174-<<Episodes are shorter?>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Hey, could be worse, the next one is only three minutes long....
jms
#: 610366 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-Nov-96 17:22:05
Sb: #B5 at WindyCon
Fm: SYSOP DUPA T PARROT
Joe,
I shoulda posted this Sunday but I forgot...
WindyCon (Nov. 8-11 in Chicago area) had two B5 panels: one a "The Story So
Far"; the other a discussion with Lit pros on the panel. WindyCon is primarily
an SF Lit convention that attracts 1600 to 2000 people.
The first panel was in a room that holds about 100-120 people (more or less).
The room was packed <g>. This room is one of the three largest rooms. For
opening/closing ceremonies and other special events, these three rooms become
one.
The second panel (scheduled immediately after the first) was in a room that
could hold about 35-40 max! You can guess what happened <g>. Your people were
here.
In other amusements...
There was a Chicago-style B5 button that read "Not Da One."
There was also a B5 room party presented as a WorldCon bid: "InterWorldCon:
Z'Ha'Dum in 2260" with Morden as poster-boy. The bid motto was "What Do You
Want?" Pre-supporters received a button that read "I got what I wanted."
-Dupa T. Parrot, Team SF/F [Tech. Supp. SysOp]
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dupa
OzWin 2.11 O-
#: 610432 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-Nov-96 18:36:55
Sb: #610366-B5 at WindyCon
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
That's great....
jms
[ Summary: One poster argues with another about his desire to see Babylon 5
as a "male fantasy" where Sheridan gets all the girls. She asks, "What
about women's fantasies?" ]
#: 610439 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 18:43:16
Sb: #610226-#Women's role in SF & B5
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
"What about women's fantasies?"
I'm busy.
jm(I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry)s
[ Summary: Asks what to do if he notices illegal merchandise being sold at
a convention. ]
#: 610485 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-Nov-96 20:12:28
Sb: #609924-#B5 Bootleg question
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
You must go to the convention operators and explain to them that by
allowing these bootleg tapes to be sold, they are violating copyright laws and
risk being acted against legally by WB. They have an obligation to ensure that
pirated material is not sold at their conventions, and if they will not enforce
it voluntarily, WB will hold them responsible, and in some cases, have already
done this at conventions.
If you see this going on, and it's happening at the time, send email to
ken_parks at warnerbros.com and we'll take it from there.
jms
[ Summary: Asks if "Point of No Return" will ever be re-aired. ]
#: 610486 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-Nov-96 20:12:29
Sb: #609944-Point Of No Return Rerun
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
I imagine it'll be played eventually but don't have the dates at hand.
jms
#: 610440 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-Nov-96 18:46:22
Sb: #609939-#Orientation
Fm: CARIN EKEROTH
exasperation.
perhaps you should read what I said, not what you think I said.
#: 610513 S5/Babylon 5: General
13-Nov-96 21:03:00
Sb: #610440-Orientation
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
I read what you said.
Reading and writing is what I *do*.
Perhaps what you said was not what you meant.
It's my experience that unless you can say what you mean, you can never
mean what you say.
What was written was a very intolerant message about bi's, and based upon
that point of view, you gigged the show for not applying a political agenda. I
don't think something as inherently personal and intimate as sex should be
politicized by either end of the spectrum, and used to dismiss one class or
another because of it. I'm an extremist for tolerance.
If some portion of what I quoted back to you was reprinted inaccurately,
or paraphrased, or otherwise changed, please let me know and I will correct it.
Otherwise, what you said was what you said. It didn't upset me, didn't make me
mad, because I'm not at issue here...I only wanted you to understand what you
were saying by sending it back to you.
jms
#: 610454 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 19:26:54
Sb: #610219-#<<WHT Mr. Garibaldi?>>
Fm: DEBRA DWNSO
>> Which side of the shadow war am I on? The third side.....<<
<very heavy sigh> I should not have expected an answer of clearer leanings.
<g>
#: 610514 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 21:03:03
Sb: #610454-#<<WHT Mr. Garibaldi?>>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Actually, as forthcoming episodes will show, that was an absolutely clear
and unambiguous answer....
jms
[ Summary: With all the recent talk about WB not wanting a year five, this
poster asks JMS to "at least be honest with us about how you are
currently writing the episodes for season 4." ]
#: 610515 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 21:03:06
Sb: #610471-4 or 5? Be HONEST, jms
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
I have been honest, and remain so. I have said, repeatedly, that at this
point WB does not know. Different departments have said different things, all
of them mutally contradictory. At one time it sounded like that might be a
possibility, and some of the cast talked about this at the time; that was
before ratings started coming in on the final 5 and the new eps, which have
been extremely strong and continuing to build. I can say that WB has, itself,
initiated discussions about a fifth season several times over just the last few
weeks.
What I'm doing is keeping my options flexible...the way it's being
written now is such that it allows me to flip either way. There's a certain
built-in drop-dead point in that structure, but that isn't near yet.
This is what I've been saying all along. I have been extremely
forthcoming about this, telling as much as *I* know at this point. So I do
somewhat resent your suggesting that I do what I am doing, and have been doing
from day one.
jms
** REMOVE **
[ Summary: Explains to all that she sees Sheridan's fall into the abyss as
more of a reference to classic literature, such as:
"1) I think Homer started it in the Greek/Roman mythology (I know there
have been journeys to the Underworld in other mythologies, but I'm not
familiar with them). Unfortunately, I stalled around the death of
Patroclous in the Illiad, and it's been a while since I last read the
Odyssey.
2) Orpheus went to the Underworld to bring back his wife, Eurydice. He
sang so beautifully to Hades and Persephone that they agreed to allow
Eurydice back to the real world, if Orpheus didn't look back at her until
they reached the surface. He couldn't stand it, and looked. She faded
away.
3) Theseus went to the Underworld to kidnap Persephone (not one of his
brightest ideas). He was caught and held in the Underworld for some time.
I believe he was rescued by Heracles (Hercules).
4) Aeneas visited the Underworld in the company of the Sibyl. He saw his
father, Anchises, in the Elysian Fields and was reproached by the shade
of his lover, Dido. He received prophecies about his destiny as founder
of Rome.
4)[sic] Dante Alighieri was sent through the Three Kingdoms of Death in
the company of Vergil (who chronicled Aeneas's journey in the Aeneiad and
was regarded as a white magician in medieval popular thought) by the
glorified spirit of his lady, Beatrice. Dante's journey was one of self-
discovery and growth - a trio of "ladies" in Heaven had seen he was in
danger of damnnation and that his redemption required the vision of evil
in all its squalor and monotony. " She goes on to state that the last
example seems the closest parallel to what's be seen with Sheridan.
Delenn is Beatrice in this case. ]
#: 610555 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
13-Nov-96 21:37:14
Sb: #610429-#John in the Underworld
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
THANK you. I've mentioned elsewhere that I was going more for the roots
of this. Though the Dante thread you mention is closest in many ways (again,
you dig into archetypes you end up with similar structures, that's the nature
of the beast), it was Orpheus going into the underworld for his wife, and
losing her, that was in the back of my head when I was blocking out that part
of the story. (You can also toss in Christ's temptation by the devil, and
descent into the wilderness, if you want.)
This will probably get me in trouble, but...on the one hand, I am always
delighted and impressed with the breadth and depth of analyses and thought of
the larger group of SF fans, and the insightfulness with which they apply those
perceptions.
On the flip side of this discussion...for a certain percentage of them,
that breadth and depth is only or primarily within SF and mainstream fantasy.
The wellspring of material from which to draw when making comparisons is not
often as broad as it should be in classical literature, mythology, medieval
studies, and so on. They see a drop into a chasm, they think "Oh, Gandalf."
Not understanding that the root of this goes back way, way, way further...to
Orpheus and his kindred spirits.
I was copied a note from someone on another newsgroup who insisted that
everything in the show had an elvish/Tolkein base, including and *especially*
the names of everyone, citing the Agamemnon as meaning something or other in
LoTR elvish. The symbol is RIGHT THERE, in the name, Agamemnon, and the whole
unfortunate history of that character and his wife, and the Cassandra character
(which is at the center of G'Kar's character)...and yet she says, "No, no, it's
all a clue, it means this thing over here."
My background is as an SF fan myself, so I offer the above without
stereotype or pejorative intent. But as well as reading SF, I spent most of my
early adult life reading from classical sources. Goethe's FAUST informs Londo
in many ways, as well as the history of early Rome, and Hegelian notions on the
role of conflict, and the divine role of the emperor. You're talking to
someone who read Plotinus' The Aenneads just for kicks, and whose favorite
character was Zeno and his paradoxes. You want to talk Plato's perfect forms?
The Socratic method of teaching? Greek tragic structure as embodied in
Oedipus? The overall work of Sophocles? The Bible? I've read that one cover
to cover twice...anyone else in the room who's done that, raise your hands and
tell me you didn't fall asleep halfway through Numbers and Deuteronomy, the two
most boring books in the whole darned thing.
There was a period in my life -- from around 1976 through 1981 -- when I
devoured everything I could in these areas. Mythology. Existentialism. Zen.
18th century literature. I took part time jobs in libraries so I could get
access to the widest possible range of books, especially new ones in areas that
interested me. A lot of the details have washed away over the years, but the
cumulative *sense* of that remains. I can still remember how excited I was
when a brand new translation of the Inferno, the Purgatario and the Paradisio
came out (from Penguin, I think), putting it all back into the proper lyric
form, and I devoured them, one day each, then read them all again using the
footnotes and marginalia.
All that time, I never knew I was preparing myself to write this show,
because it could *only* be done with a generalist background, knowing a little
about a lot of areas...just enough to get into trouble, ususally, but still the
grounding is there.
Funny thing...about two, three weeks ago, I got an email from a woman who
is a professor of medieval studies at a major university, who said she'd been
nudged into watching the show by her graduate students, and is now a big fan of
the show. She said that as she watched, she "clicked" constantly on the
sources from medieval and classical literature, mythology, and other deep well
sources, and was pleased to see them being used in a contermporary or
futuristic venue.
Anyway, it's what I've always said about this show...you see the paradigm
with which you are most familiar. Sometimes that's great, and sometimes it's a
curse.
jms
[ Summary: Responds to JMS' comment about women's fantasies (above). ]
#: 610661 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
14-Nov-96 01:48:57
Sb: #610570-#Women's role in SF & B5
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
"...you are a very, very bad man..."
Okay, how the hell did I get out here in the cornfield...?
jms
[ Summary: Asks if JMS thinks Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" could be done as a
television miniseries. ]
#: 610662 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
14-Nov-96 01:48:59
Sb: #610509-<Rage's Thots: Teeps>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
"In your capacity as an executive producer of one of the most innovative shows
on TV, do you think a miniseries (or set of miniseries) is technically possible
for Neil Gaiman's SNADMAN, or is SANDMAN by virtue of it's construction
insanely difficult to bring to the screen?"
I think it'd be eminently do-able. And I'd love to do it if Neil
doesn't.
jms
[ Summary: Asks if the "pieces" of Vorlons (like the one in Sheridan)
can survive for long away from the core Vorlon. ]
#: 610663 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
14-Nov-96 01:49:01
Sb: #610512-<Vorlon Consciousness>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
They can't survive for long on their own.
jms
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