JMS on CompuServe (Mar 01, 1997) *POSSIBLE SPOILERS*
bbarrett at speedlink.com
bbarrett at speedlink.com
Sat Mar 1 16:19:31 EST 1997
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WARNING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The following posts may contain SPOILERS for
upcoming Babylon 5 episodes.
Continue at your own risk.
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THE FOLLOWING MATERIAL IS THE COPYRIGHT OF THE
RESPECTIVE MESSAGE AUTHORS AND CANNOT BE
REPRODUCED IN ANY FORM WITHOUT THE EXPRESSED
PERMISSION OF THE AUTHOR.
Note that JMS has expressed his public permission
that all of his messages may be reproduced freely.
I give permission for my summaries to be reposted in
any form, however I reserve all rights to them and
the right to revoke this permission at any time.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Archives of this material may be found at:
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[ Summary of subjects in this section: ]
Sb: #652282-Number of B5 Episodes?
Sb: #652295-#To Sysops from jms
Sb: #652371-#To Sysops from jms
Sb: #652340-#To Sysops from jms
Sb: #652371-#To Sysops from jms
Sb: #652488-Official: No year 5
Sb: #NEW To Sysops From jms
Sb: #652512-To Sysops from jms
Sb: #652445-#Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
Sb: #>>Atonement<<
Sb: #652169-#To Sysops from jms
#: 652282 S5/Babylon 5: General
28-Feb-97 13:32:20
Sb: #Number of B5 Episodes?
Fm: DAN T. DAVIS
I don't want to make assumptions about season 5, but isn't the statement
"entire 88 episodes" incorrect EVEN IF there are only four seasons? My count
is that there are 4 sets of 22 episodes PLUS the 2 hour premiere.
Or is TNT not going to show the premiere after the "Prequel"?
Finally, if it IS 88+2 (or 110+2) episodes, will the premiere be broken up
into two one hour pieces to become part of the overall set?
(Or, you may not even KNOW the answer to this, since you don't control
what they do, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it....)
Thanks,
Dan
#: 652393 S5/Babylon 5: General
28-Feb-97 17:22:29
Sb: #652282-Number of B5 Episodes?
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
We haven't been told anything official yet.
jms
[ Summary: A poster comments on her experiences fighting censorship on
CIS forums. ]
#: 652394 S5/Babylon 5: General
28-Feb-97 17:22:30
Sb: #652295-#To Sysops from jms
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
"I have NEVER ONCE seen the forum participants WIN."
Then it's about time, no?
jms
[ Summary: Wizop Wes Meier continues his open discussion with JMS about
censorship and copyright rules on the SFMEDIA forum. ]
#: 652395 S5/Babylon 5: General
28-Feb-97 17:22:33
Sb: #652371-#To Sysops from jms
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Wes, you have still not replied to the main point of my message.
You say you are following the CIS rules, which will determine whether or
not sfmedone is placed on the Parental Control List. But the rules you quoted
indicate that in fact this sort of language is PERMITTED, provided that it does
not happen more than once every 50 messages.
You have still not shown to me that this was the case here. On what
basis do you decide that it happened in 49 messages or 51 messages? You have
completely ignored my request for you to show me the figures you used to make
this determination...figures without which you could not have made that
determination...unless you just did it arbitrarily. Which is it?
As for the quotes...every first year journalist understands what Fair
Use is, and what constitutes Fair Use. Surely CIS can afford one lawyer to
consult for one hour to tell you what every journalist knows...that to a large
degree it's a matter of the extent of the material quoted, its proportion to
the original material, and whether or not proper attribution is made. If a
book is at issue, quoting several paragraphs certainly falls into fair
use...while quoting several paragraphs of a one-page poem would not, again due
to the proportions involved.
I'm still waiting for you to show me the basis on which you made your
decision. If you cannot provide it, you leave only the impression that it was
made arbitrarily, and that you *yourself* stand in violation of CIS rules, and
should be reported as such.
However, that you are "rethinking" the policy is certainly a good
thing...in a way, it's not so much the policy as the *method of implementing*
that policy, and the extremes used, that may be most in need of attention.
BTW, I was interviewed just this afternoon by a reporter from SciFi
Entertainment on the online world, and went into this at some length; it will
likely show up in the next column there. I'll be sure to update her on further
developments.
jms
#: 652399 S5/Babylon 5: General
28-Feb-97 17:28:41
Sb: #652371-#To Sysops from jms
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
PS...you also did not respond to the point that "pissed off" is NOT on
the Carlin list, and is not even the same WORD as what Carlin cites, does not
have the same meaning. It's not nitpicking, it's NOT THE SAME WORD, so the
Carlin "rule" does not apply to it.
One word means bodily fluids, one means a state of anger. You can say
they're the same to your heart's content, but words mean what they mean, not
what you want them to mean. You're shooting at the wrong target.
jms
[ Summary: More comments on why "pissed" shouldn't be banned from CIS. ]
#: 652398 S5/Babylon 5: General
28-Feb-97 17:28:40
Sb: #652340-#To Sysops from jms
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Here's the ultimate irony...this began in part because a word was used
just once...and the furor has led to the word being used far, far more times
than would have been the case if the situation had been left alone by the
sysops.
jms
[ Summary: Asks JMS to describe his relationship to Netter's company. ]
#: 652521 S5/Babylon 5: General
01-Mar-97 00:30:53
Sb: #652488-Official: No year 5
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Yes, we both have equal ownership of Babylonian Productions, but Netter
Digital Entertainment is his separate company, I have nothing to do with it,
don't work for or with it or own any of it.
jms
[ Summary: I could not find the original. JMS is either replying to a
private message from Wizop Wes or one that has been removed from the
system. ]
#: 652522 S5/Babylon 5: General
01-Mar-97 00:30:58
Sb: #NEW To Sysops From jms
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
"I decided to not address that part of your message because it seemed moot in
light of the fact that I agreed with you in regard to the Carlin 7, that we are
reconsidering our position that we will abide by them, and that, in the
meantime, would discontinue "backrooming" any messages unless they were
blatantly offensive and/or broke other forum rules. As for the stats you
requested, I can't provide what I do not have. While I admit that we pulled
messages containing profanity, we did not do so "arbitrarily." We pulled EVERY
message that we saw."
Ah, but now that confirms what I suggested earlier. The rules require
you to pull one such message per every 50 messages, that was the part of the
rule book that you, yourself, cited to me. So if you pulled EVERY message,
then you violated CIS rules. So that point is now resolved. Thank you.
"If we decide to no longer aspire to remaining off the PC list then Carlin's 7
becomes moot and you will have "won" on both of your points. What more do you
want?"
Actually, nothing...and this isn't about me winning, I don't have any
vested interest in you losing or me winning. Who wins if a situation goes from
unreasonable to reasonable? Answer: we both win. You aren't stuck having to
enforce essentially indefensible and arbitrary policies, and can instead
enforce them selectively, logically, and in keeping with CIS policies. Which
means you don't get people yelling at you, and you have the backing to avoid
doing things which you, yourself, stated you don't like doing. I don't see
this as a particularly bad thing at all here.
RE: the interview this afternoon with Sci-Fi Entertainment, in which I
mentioned the current fracas, you say:
"Thank you for indicting us in an area where we can't "confront our accuser."
Old Joe McCarthy would be proud of you for using that tactic. I hope that you
will "update her" if you and I conclude this discussion to your satisfaction."
I simply applied the same practice that was going on here, and backroomed
the discussion with the reporter, since that seemed good enough for the sysops.
And you can certainly "confront your accuser" -- assuming that anyone who
speaks from their own experience of a controversial situation is automatically
your accuser -- when the piece appears. But to your last point...yes, I will
indeed update her completely if this continues toward a positive resolution, as
it seems to be doing. Understand that I'm a pain in the butt...but I'm fair.
And I try to be honest.
That said...I now turn to the earlier, positive comments, so we can end
this on a positive note...and those looking on: pay attention to what's said in
Wes's note.
Regarding the rules under discussion, note the following:
"...we are reconsidering our position that we will abide by them, and
that, in the meantime, would discontinue "backrooming" any messages unless they
were blatantly offensive and/or broke other forum rules."
I think that this single sentence now takes care of most of the concerns
here; if the practice of backrooming is now being discontinued, this is a
positive step in the right direction, and negates about 75% of the concern
shared by myself and others here. I think that most people here would agree
with that.
"If we decide to no longer aspire to remaining off the PC list then
Carlin's 7 becomes moot." A valid point.
Re: the Fair Use issue: "That isn't as definitive as I'd like, but seems
to substantiate what other, non-legal, folks have said. On the other hand,
there have been others who are or have been publicists who claim that more than
2-3 lines quoted exceed "fair use." Believe me, we're working on nailing this
down."
Thank you, and I have every confidence that what you discover will
confirm what has been discussed here. Bear in mind that publicists are rarely
journalists, and their job is often to discourage use of their client's
material in excess, so they can control it, and when using one's quotes to
publicize something, there are other very strict rules that come into play. If
I write a review of a book, and a publicist wants to excerpt that review to
promote someone's book to make them money, I'm going to be fairly hard about
what's allowed to promote someone else's work.
This is a different situation altogether from quoting material in the
context of a discussion. There the Fair Use contingencies of copyright law
come into play. Any good book on journalism law will go into this at length.
Good on you, though, to continue to dig into it.
"Any constructive suggestions you have would be welcomed -- assuming we
decide to continue with wanting to stay off the PC list. Hell, for that
matter, any constructive suggestions ANYONE has would be welcomed at this
point!"
Which was the other point I mentioned. By not backrooming these sorts of
discussions, you open up the door to constructive suggestions on how to deal
with them. If you had said, "Listen, folks, we have a problem here...the use
of language is getting into the more-than-1-in-50 limits we have to abide by,
and I'm concerned about the quoting of material. Could you work with me on
this and come up with some ways to moderate the discussion a bit so it doesn't
get out of hand, and give me some hard facts about what constitutes Fair Use"
I'll bet you $100 you'd have tons of *constructive* comments, NObody would've
said you had a german accent, and you would've come out of this like a saint.
B5 fans are *notoriously* helpful, and understanding, and you can bet
your shoes they would've come at you with a very different response. "Here,"
they would've said, "HERE is somebody who respects our intelligence, who wants
our input, who is open to at least *discuss* this so that we know what's at
stake, and know what our options are, and would welcome our help to resolve a
thorny problem he's stuck with and doesn't much like."
So given all this...to those looking on...lay back for a bit. I think we
are getting some positive movement here, the policy of backrooming has already
been stopped, from what Wes has said, and the policy is being reconsidered,
which was the point of the exercise.
I think that Wes has been very receptive here, and has made a good faith
effort to rectify what is, for him and other sysops here, a difficult and
obviously painful situation. Let's now let the process continue.
The "Joe McCarthy" comment I will let slide personally, because you were
upset, and we're all entitled to a moment's upset. Instead, I will again
simply thank you for taking the steps you have taken, and look forward to the
final resolution of this.
jms
[ Summary: Asks if JMS has considered the odds of actually winning a war
against CIS over censorship. ]
#: 652523 S5/Babylon 5: General
01-Mar-97 00:31:03
Sb: #652512-To Sysops from jms
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Check my last note...
jms
[ Summary: A poster just learned of JMS' problem with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
and recommends some sources of information on CTS. ]
#: 652525 S5/Babylon 5: General
01-Mar-97 00:31:09
Sb: #652445-#Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Thanks. I've seen just about every article on CTS that I can think of,
and I've got it down to a roar...sometimes it's worse than other times. The
Kinesis ergonomic keyboard at work helps, and I just sent out for a Datahand
keyboard to use at home to see if that helps further. It aches pretty much all
the time, but it's a low, dull ache and I'm hardly aware of it most of the
time. It's only when I go to bed, and I'm still for more than 5 minutes at a
time, that it really starts to demand my attention.
It was *much* worse last year or so, when I had to literally write for 20
minutes, ice down my hands/wrists for 20 minutes, write for 20, ice for 20, on
and on. I actually haven't had to do that this year.
(And yes, when I remember to do so, I use the wrist braces.)
jms
#: 652448 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
28-Feb-97 20:11:38
Sb: #>>Atonement<<
Fm: TONI MULLER
As a big Delenn fan, I have been eagerly anticipating this episode and, thanks
to you and the cast and crew, was not disappointed. In fact, it was better
than I imagined. Loved all the humor as well as the revelations. I loved how
you had Marcus continue singing over the credits, along with Franklin's cry of
irritation - i just kept laughing and laughing.
A couple of questions:
Does what we (and a few Minbari) now know about the triluminaries glowing in
response to human DNA necessarily negate the theory of the "Minari Soul Train"?
Will Delenn ever tell John the truth?
What's going on with Delenn's/Mira's hair? I know folks have asked this, but
it does bother me. I really liked the way it was done in "Soul Mates" and
other episodes. It just seems like she's gotten things together, life is
looking up (in spite of everthing!) and she should have hair to match.
Kudos upon Kudos! B5 is our all-time favorite and we are really hoping for a
season 5. Sent out our support letters to Warner Brothers last week.
Toni
#: 652526 S6/Babylon 5: Spoilers
01-Mar-97 00:31:11
Sb: #652448-#>>Atonement<<
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
We keep working on Mira's hair...some days it's better than others.
jms
#: 652463 S5/Babylon 5: General
28-Feb-97 20:37:30
Sb: #652169-#To Sysops from jms
Fm: TOM KNUDSEN
Nigel,
<For myself, if this ridiculous policy of censoring messages because of
supposed "obscene words" causes Joe to leave then I see no point in continuing
my membership of the SF forums.>
Thanks for the support. Now that the missing messages concerning
Stephen's departure are back, I'm turning my attention to the Parental Controls
issue. As of now, I'm not leaving Sunday night, but if we can't work the
Parental Control issue out, I might still leave. I didn't agree to play by the
rules of that system when I joined. If the rules have changed and can't be
fixed, I don't want to play by them.
Tom^^^^
"The avalanche has ALREADY started. It is too late
for the pebbles to vote." - Kosh Naranek
#: 652535 S5/Babylon 5: General
01-Mar-97 00:42:03
Sb: #652463-To Sysops from jms
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Give Wes some time...he has restored the messages, and is currently in
the position of reconsidering the situation regarding the rules themselves, and
what actually applies within those rules. I think we should be willing to give
him the room to do so without an immediate deadline, since he has made a good
faith effort here.
jms
[END]
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