JMS on CompuServe (Nov 09, 1997) *POSSIBLE SPOILERS*
bbarrett at speedlink.com
bbarrett at speedlink.com
Sun Nov 9 17:48:07 EST 1997
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[ Summary of subjects in this section: ]
Sb: #5754-#Last episode #
Sb: #5723-Peter in N.S.N.R.
Sb: #5688-#Marcus Aurelius
Sb: #5812-Marcus Aurelius
Sb: #5757-<DOFS> - Bro. Theo
Sb: #5703-"Destruction" from CIS?
Sb: #5878-Live chats OnLine
Sb: #5878-#Live chats OnLine
Sb: #5953-<Deconstruction>
Sb: #5842-Deconstruction
Sb: #5887-Sol going nova
#: 5754 S2/Bab 5: General
06-Nov-97 20:29:14
Sb: #5437-#Last episode #
Fm: TOM KNUDSEN
Joe,
<I think they finally realized it's not something I want to do....>
Speaking of which.....is there any news on Crusade yet?
Tom^^^^
#: 5774 S2/Bab 5: General
07-Nov-97 00:02:04
Sb: #5754-#Last episode #
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
"Speaking of which.....is there any news on Crusade yet?"
Did you think I would forget to mention it?
jms
#: 5723 S2/Bab 5: General
06-Nov-97 13:35:05
Sb: Peter in N.S.N.R.
Fm: COLIN HEAPS
Hi Joe,
Would you please pass on to Peter J. the respect of my wife and myself for the
scene in No Surrender, No Retreat where he is at the bar and G'kar finally
takes *that* drink.
The range of emotions he puts across without uttering a word was truly
breathtaking, as I said to Jill, If that was on the big screen, I would of had
to applaud, it was truly outstanding!
Here in old Blighty the past couple have been really good, what with Neroons
sacrifice and now the earth war looming.
Pass on our deepest thanks to cast and crew for making it one hell of a ride.
Eh??? Wassat?? - What about you?? - Oh alright then, you can have a pat on the
back too <vbg>.
Great work from the great maker!
Regards,
Colkai
#: 5775 S2/Bab 5: General
07-Nov-97 00:02:05
Sb: #5723-Peter in N.S.N.R.
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Thanks...will pass that along.
jms
#: 5688 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
06-Nov-97 04:36:09
Sb: #5680-#Marcus Aurelius
Fm: ANNE L. WARNER
Joe,
>> apparently it began to take the church structure as its own model in how to
operate (when its own infrastructure began to collapse), <<
How circular! Have you read Elaine Pagels book, "The Gnostic Gospels?" It's
about the fight over orthodoxy in first and second century Christianity. One
of her major conclusions is that the Church organized itself in imitation of
the state. Everyone seems to have assumed that religious and civil structures
should be the same. <Ick>
But Marcus Aurelius is earlier than the Church becoming a major force in the
Empire. He was the last of the "Six Good Emperors." His son and heir was so
awful that the army took on the role of kingmaker. There is a strong argument
to the effect that the domination of the office of the Emperor by the
Praetorian Guard (and the military in general) was instrumental in the decay
of everything, long before Constantine made Christianity the official
religion.
That was what I was alluding to, when I said Marcus wasn't all that good for
the Empire. By changing the mode of chosing the Emperor, he changed the whole
political process, and not for the better.
All of this is totally separate from the values expressed in his philosophical
writing.
As you have pointed out, one person can make a huge difference. And your
comment made perfectly good sense. My graduate advisor in Medieval History
maintained that Christian values, especially their communitarian and fiscal
ideals, contributed heavily to the decay of civil government throughout Europe
in the transition from Empire to "Dark Ages." It's hard to run a good
government if you think it's immoral to collect taxes! <g>
Sorry I ran on so long.
Anne
#: 5777 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
07-Nov-97 00:02:05
Sb: #5688-#Marcus Aurelius
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
That's an odd perspective since so much of Medeival christianity ran on
money...pilgrims providing a constant stream of money to various churches and
shrines to saints, leading to competitions between shrines, and (of all
things) the "sub-letting" of shrines by taking the bones of saint A and
sending on bone to shrine B, another to shrine C, and generating money in
those regions. And of course the buying of spiritual favors, patrons, the
rich folk sending others to do penance for them...it was all about money.
(Source: Finucane's MIRACLES AND PILGRIMS, a fascinating book, btw.)
Interesting aside...for the last 6-8 months, I've been doing a fair
amount of research into medieval England, especially the medieval church, for
a play I'm writing (which may become a novel if I'm not careful). Dumped
several hundred dollars on a massive order from Amazon.com back a few months
ago to fill out what I needed. That was what tangentially led me into the
post-Burn sequence in "Deconstruction." My brain has been full of monks for
the last 8 months or so, and knowing the role they played in maintaining
secular knowledge from about 500 AD and for some time thereafter, that seemed
the perfect route to go that would also resonate with the look of the Rangers
and the religious caste Minbari and the whole feel we were setting up.
It was only when I was about halfway into the act that I thought, "Oh,
crud, this is the same area Canticle explored." And for several days I set it
aside and strongly considered dropping it, or changing the venue (at one point
considered setting it in the ruins of a university, but I couldn't make that
work realistically...who'd be supporting a university in the ruins of a major
nuclear war? Who'd have the *resources* I needed? The church, or what would
at least LOOK like the church. My sense of backstory here is that the
Anla-shok moved in and started little "abbeys" all over the place, using the
church as cover, but rarely actually a part of it, which was why they had not
gotten their recognition, and would never get it. Rome probably didn't even
know about them, or knew them only distantly.)
Anyway...at the end of the day, I decided to leave it as it was, since
I'd gotten there on an independent road, we'd already had a number of monks on
B5, and there's been a LOT of theocratic science fiction written beyond
Canticle...Gather Darkness, aspects of Foundation, others.
jms
#: 5812 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
07-Nov-97 07:18:04
Sb: #5777-#Marcus Aurelius
Fm: ANNE L. WARNER
Joe,
To start at the end, I'm glad you kept the monastic scene in "Deconstruction."
I viewed it as an homage, not an imitation, and I think it would have made the
episode more political, and much less spiritual, if you had omitted it.
The Church did, indeed, run on money, but later. In the period between
(about) 400 and 900 AD, though, there was lots of experimentation, most abbeys
and monasteries were local, and secular rule was being radically restructured.
What period is the book you just cited about? I'd bet it was from
Roncesvalles (sp?) to the Rennaisance, or maybe 1000 to 1500? It sounds like
then.... I'll see if I can get hold of a copy, it also sounds interesting.
Some of the earliest "barbarian" rulers converted to Christianity took the
theories very seriously, indeed. Some of them tried some very bizarre
adminstrative experiments. Think, for a minute, about Arthur. He was a
"perfect knight" but we have no evidence that the non-military part of his
duties was run at all. Dr. Cazel, my prof on such stuff, was talking about
Arthur's contemporaries, the various invading barbarian hordes, overrunning
and dismembering the western Roman Empire. He wasn't intending the concept to
apply to the feudal kingdoms of the high middle ages. They had learned both
better and worse. <g>
In your reading about medieval England, did you get Georges Duby's "William
the Marshall?" It's a very illuminating book, and not too long, either. If
you don't have it, and want it, I'll ship you my copy. William was one very
impressive dude and very important in both English and American Constitutional
history. He is, as I think about it, a single man, not a ruler, who made a
big, big difference.
Oh! Back to B5. As we were watching it, Greg got kind of irritated by the
political science types. (He's currently suffering from a case of political
burn-out, and doesn't want to hear about it!) He complained, "Joe's doing
something he never did before. He's boring me. <grumble, grumble>" Thirty
seconds later Delenn entered the scene. "Joe's not boring me any more! Wow!"
You illuminate lots of issues. Please keep it up.
Anne
#: 5841 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
07-Nov-97 12:06:14
Sb: #5812-Marcus Aurelius
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
You're correct; the part where the money got to be bigtime for the
church was in the 13th-15th centuries. That was where the saint business went
bigtime, to the point where the church bosses had to start hammering the local
branches where the saints were getting too powerful, and began creating
challenges to the main line of authority.
I love the competition that broke out among them...some saying that
their saint was better at miracles than the one down the road, and if you're
stupid enough to *go* to the one down the road, why, things could actually get
worse for you....
jms
[ Summary: "Why wouldn't the other human colonies give 'em a hand _right
after_ the whole mess happened?" ]
#: 5776 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
07-Nov-97 00:02:05
Sb: #5757-<DOFS> - Bro. Theo
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Some probably would offer to help...but if technology is now suspect,
some might not want that help...other colonies might be of the "screw 'em,
they got what they deserved" perspective...often politics gets in the way of
charity.
jms
#: 5703 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
06-Nov-97 07:26:07
Sb: "Destruction" from CIS?
Fm: VADIM NARODITSKY
Did participating and reading various arguments about Sheridan and Co.
inspired you to write this episode? These professors sound a lot like some
forum members.
Vadim
#: 5840 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
07-Nov-97 11:37:09
Sb: #5703-"Destruction" from CIS?
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
One can find any number of pains in the butts reflected in that show.
jms
[ Summary: "I've got something that's made me so tired that today I didn't
get out of bed until 1 PM and other days I just can't seem to stay awake
even after I do get up." ]
#: 5898 S2/Bab 5: General
08-Nov-97 01:36:03
Sb: #5878-Live chats OnLine
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
Yeah, I've got the last of it, and that was a big part of it, the total
and absolute fatigue. Combined with only getting a few hours sleep here and
there, it's kinda taken a toll, but fortunately I'm at the tail end of the
thing finally, and should be back up to snuff in a few days.
jms
#: 5899 S2/Bab 5: General
08-Nov-97 01:36:03
Sb: #5878-#Live chats OnLine
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
PS...chewable Vitamin C and Zinc lozenges. Trust me on this.
jms
[ Summary: "[How] many of the [episodes] are written at this time?" ]
#: 6029 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
09-Nov-97 02:43:06
Sb: #5953-<Deconstruction>
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
I'm writing #14 right now.
jms
[ Summary: "The Ranger was actually speaking to the memory of Sheridan
and Delenn." ]
#: 5900 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
08-Nov-97 01:36:03
Sb: #5842-Deconstruction
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
One can read that scene in many ways.
jms
#: 5887 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
07-Nov-97 22:06:01
Sb: #Sol going nova
Fm: STEPHEN BURROW
I have seen the discussions and responses from you on the Sun going nova in
DoFS and the "atypical solar emissions." Simply put, were these humans in
1,000,000 A.D. doing as the Vorlons and Shadows did when they left the galaxy,
and destroying their home planet to prevent the younger races from obtaining
their technology? Also, I have seen it suggested by others, but not confirmed
by you: were the humans in fact leaving the galaxy, or simply relocating?
All in all, DoFS has been for me the most thought-provoking episode you have
written. Thank you very much.
Stephen Burrow
#: 5901 S4/Bab 5: **SPOILERS**
08-Nov-97 01:36:03
Sb: #5887-Sol going nova
Fm: J. MICHAEL STRACZYNSKI
No point in leaving the galaxy; stars go nova, it only affects the
immediate vicinity (big as that is). By this point, they were in the position
of the Vorlons, and now have to take their (our) place guiding the younger
races, the next wave, while not getting in the way and remembering the lesson
of the shadow/vorlon conflict.
jms
[END]
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