Crusade: A Fiscal Repackaging of B5

B5JMS Poster b5jms-owner at
Wed May 13 06:59:42 EDT 1998

From: "Plain and Simple Cronan" <cronan at>
Date: 12 May 1998 16:33:29 -0600
Lines: 169

Jms at B5 wrote
>You are obviously posting this to try and throw back my words at me
>about DS9, made several years ago, being without any new vision
>behind it.  Because that's all you're really capable of, trying to
>come up with new cheap shots.

1. Yes. This is basically your post to GEnie altered. I am throwing
words back at you because you are not the same person you were in '92.
'92 you were the fans last, best hope for quality television space
Today? You're Roddenberry with lots more talent.

2. My shots are never cheap.

>My message at the time dealt specifically with a context which you
>ignore: TNG was created by Gene Roddenberry (with some considerable
>help from David Gerrold); those who followed then took those elements
>and repackaged them into DS9 without actually *inventing* much: it
>all made by someone else with a vision (Roddenberry, who also had the
>original ST vision).
>It was a new show, but not a new vision, because that vision was
>created before then, by others.  Hence, my comments at that time.

>In this case, the person who created the original vision of the
Babylon 5
>universe (which would be me) is still alive.

Let me ask you: was Star Trek to die because Gene Roddenberry died?
What are
the chances that Crusade would simply cease to exist were you to die?
with Turner already having invested money in it are they likely to
their shoulders and walk away upon the death of one man? Roddenberry's
is immaterial to this discussion. You created the Babylon concept. You
now doing what Verman et al did so many years ago with DS9. And did
with Voyager. Simply because it is you doing the packaging does not
its flimsy nature.

>That's why the context in such a discussion is everything; the single
>from me out of the context of the whole discussion results in missing
>entire point: my feeling at that time that those making DS9 didn't
>new to that show that was not created by others, who were no longer

Your 'feeling at the time'? So your feelings have changed? You, after
years, have changed your mind? Regardless, my feelings about Crusade
Season F(for failure) mirror yours from '92 on DS9. Nothing new is to
brought to Crusade. The future has been set thanks to B5. You're not
offering something as visionary as B5 once was. You're repackaging the
with a new mindset.

But I am willing to accept the possibility that I am wrong. Let's say,
arguments sake, that you had a new vision. How much of this vision had
to be
sacrificed to fit into a long standing universe? How well could the
of Babylon 5 have endured had it been FORCED into the universe of
1999 or Buck Rogers or Battlestar: Galactica? Either way it doesn't

>And by the way, if you're going to steal my words, and put them in
>message (while twisting the context) and pretend that they're your
>that's called plagiarism.

I posted your message on the unmediated group immediately following my
posting of this version. I was planning on doing the same in this
group were
the ideas expressed therein questioned. Shall I do so now?

>Why don't you just give it a rest, Cronan?

You created something that moved me once. I figured I should return
favor. Would you have me abandon you to the sycophantic ramblings that
taken the place of discourse on this group? If the blind lead the
both shall fall into the ditch.

>And by the way, why don't you post your real name some time?  You sit
>there and snipe from the shadows constantly, attacking me and others
>in this forum, many of whose names are takes a certain
>of coward to do this kind of crap from behind the safety of

I am curious. Have you asked this of Gharlane of Eddore? I read
with him and find no mention of it.

>If you feel so strongly about your opinions, which you shove around
>as if they mattered, then you should be prepared to stand behind
>You search out my posts by my name and twist them around, why not
give us
>the same luxury by giving us your real name?

I am disappointed in you. My real name is Cronan Maliki Jamel
Cronan Maliki Jamel. I have posted this on numerous occasions. It is
unusual, I'll grant you, but my mother has a penchant for such things.
brother is Imani DeJesus(Faith in Jesus) and my sister Shari Aseba(a
in Africa). The only one of us with a 'normal' name would be my
Christopher Manly. He is named after my great-grandfather. Again, this
irrelevant to the points YOU raised oh so long ago.

I will offer up to you my pivate telephone number so that you may call
It would be an honor to speak with you. I was planning on coming to
but my erudition must take precedence. I honestly wished to meet you
to face but a phone call will do.

>Either you believe in the rightness of your opinions, in which case
>should have no problem standing behind them, or you do not, in which
>you are a coward.  Which is it?

How dare you. You, who would cower behind the moderators. You, who
take up a bunker mentality towards all criticisms. You, who would
about accusations of plagiarism knowing that they have been thrown
at you.... Call ME a coward?

You shame yourself.

> jms

You are not the man you once were.

Then again perhaps you never were.

. . . where ignorance is bliss,
'Tis folly to be wise. - Thomas Gray

From: jmsatb5 at (Jms at B5)
Date: 12 May 1998 20:52:34 -0600
Lines: 60

There is no point in replying further to you, Cronan, because the replies would
mean nothing to you because you don't care about the content of the replies. 
You say that you're here as a fan of the show, but in fact in the unmoderated
group you've been ragging on B5 and its fans and jumping in with Holland and
Theron and Ford and the rest of the dysfunctional gang over there for a long
time before you decided to stick your snout in here. 

You don't care about a reasoned discussion, you don't want a reasoned
discussion, you're here simply to troll, to get a rise out of people, myself

Since you found it amusing to call up my own post, I decided to pull out your
public replies from the unmoderated group concerning all this.  Do we see here
the comments of someone generally concerned abou the show?  Or do we see here
someone who is enjoying getting a rise out of people, someone who is doing this
only to cause upset?

I quote (the non-bracketed comments are your own words:
>But look at all the willing little fishes, with their open gulping mouths!

Silly boy.

>Personally, I would have avoided introducing any "new" words of my own into
>JMS', just to keep it purer, for a stronger backlash when the critics come
>snarling along behind.  But that's just me, and you do P&SC better than I
>ever could.

If I didn't do Cronan and you didn't do Infinity then we'd have serious
problems, wouldn't we. 

>But look at all the willing little fishes, with their open gulping

You people are out to embarass me.

> ...why no AFT-S cross, you poop?  Was it something I said?  ;-)

Well this wasn't the kind of thing that you usually goes to AFT-S...
it is funnier than I'd hoped, BTW.


You think it's funny.  You enjoy that your comments get these sorts of
reactions from the "little fishes."  You say you're being quite open here about
who you are, that it has nothing to do with your comments...and then you say
that if you "didn't DO Cronan" you'd have serious problems.  Hardly the sort of
thing one says about one's own name now is it?  I find that a very interesting
statement, and a telling contradiction.

A fan of the show?  No.  A troll?  Yes.  

And I have far more interesting things to do with my life than deal with
trolls.  Go find another target, Cronan.  I'm not buying, and I'm not  playing.


(jmsatb5 at
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