[B5JMS] ATT: jms Why do you oppose a war agaist Iraq?

b5jms-admin at cs.columbia.edu b5jms-admin at cs.columbia.edu
Thu Jan 23 04:28:00 EST 2003

From: babylon5_crusade at yahoo.com (Adam Evans)
Date: 17 Jan 2003 11:13:01 -0800
Lines: 16

Why do most people don't see Saddam as a threat? He has violated every
resolution the UN gave him. He is a threat to Israel. He does not like
the US government. Yesterday the UN inspectors found 12 chemical
warheads in great condition. That's in violation of the new resolution
because he was to destroy them or list them on the 12,000-page
declaration last month. He almost once killed an ex-president. We
don't want Saddam to be the next North Korea. Also note most of the
Middle East is ruled by tyrant rulers. They considered a threat for
having a democracy in Iraq.
Adam Evans
E-Mail: babylon5_crusade at yahoo.com
Debator of SGN: www.sgnonline.com/vb
Ideology: Neo-Conservative and the ideals of Ronald Reagan
Political Party: US Republican Party

From: jmsatb5 at aol.com (Jms at B5)
Date: 21 Jan 2003 08:53:51 GMT
Lines: 141

>Why do most people don't see Saddam as a threat?

There's threats and there's threats.  To his own people?  Sure, same as any
tyrant in any country around the world.  To the US?  Again, no more than
anybody else, and probably less, given that his military is in a shambles, his
economy is a mess, there hasn't been one shred of evidence to support the
thesis that he can hurt anybody outside his own borders...on and on and on.

>He has violated every
>resolution the UN gave him.

As others have pointed out, the US has violated UN rules, ditto for Israel and
any number of other countries.  In addition, the US has removed itself from the
World Court, broken the Arms Limitation Pact with Russia, has announced it
plans to start testing nukes again in violation of the Test Ban Treaty, I could
go on and on.  Should we invade ourselves?

>He is a threat to Israel. 

Lots of governments are.  So why are we taking on this one?  Is that the reason
for the invasion?  Because he's a threat to Isreal?  That hasn't been said by
our government.  If that were the reason, then we should be invading Palistine,
Lebanon, Iran and so on.  Why is Iraq being singled out?

>He does not like the US government.

I didn't know that was a requirement for not being invaded.  Are we therefore
free to invade anybody who doesn't like us?  Because that would entail most of
the world as matters stand right now, which is ironic since after 9/11 a lot of
the world was was standing *with* us until we squandered that good will and
antagonized countries that would normally be our friends.  But again, we're not
invading all or any of them, why Iraq?

>Yesterday the UN inspectors found 12 chemical
>warheads in great condition.

No, they found 12 *empty* warheads, that could be used for chemical charges, in
a box covered with dust and rat droppings that had been sitting in a corner for
god knows how long.  Shall we go to war for 12 empty shell casings?  Other
nations have shell casings, some empty, some full of chemical or biological
agents, numbering in the hundreds.  Why Iraq and not them?

>That's in violation of the new resolution
>because he was to destroy them or list them on the 12,000-page
>declaration last month. 

There's some debate apparently as to whether or not these were in a previously
declared document.  Bear in mind also that most of the weaponry, chemical and
missile, was sold to Iraq by the US. 

>He almost once killed an ex-president.

That's been alleged but never substantiated.  Nor has a shred of evidence EVER
been presented tying Iraq to 9/11.  Not one.  Powell and Bush both came forth
saying that such proof would be forthcoming, but to date not one bit has been
supplied.  Instead, we have Rumsfeld saying things like "the absence of proof
is not the proof of absence."  This is the same Rumsfeld who was quoted talking
to one of his staff as saying "can we tie this to Saddam?" within hours of
9/11.  They were looking for a reason to go after him.

When Kennedy was prepared to go to the wall over Cuba, he declassified high
resolution photos of the missile sites under construction in Cuba.  The moment
he did that, there was no longer any argument over the rightness of the cause. 
If Bush has the evidence, he should produce it.  Instead, he says, as he does
in the new Woodward book, that the president doesn't have to prove or explain
himself to anybody.

>don't want Saddam to be the next North Korea. 

Except, of course, we *do* have North Korea being belligerent, threatening
nuclear war, which *does* have nukes or the potential to make them, which *has*
been exporting missiles to Yemen...and that seemingly much greater menace is
being treated with diplomatic kid-gloves by the Bush administration.  Why the
double standard?  Are they afraid to make trouble because they know that North
Korea really *is* a threat, but Iraq *isn't*?  If so, then again, I ask, why
single out Iraq?

>Also note most of the
>Middle East is ruled by tyrant rulers.

Okay, so do we now invade all of them too?  It's also worth noting that most of
them don't like Saddam.  Further, most of the Moslem leaders aren't big on
Saddam because he's kept a secular rule in place despite religious
pressure...which makes any thought of an alliance with Bin Laden even more
suspect, since he's dead against a secular state.

>They considered a threat for
>having a democracy in Iraq.

This sentence doesn't parse.  Try again.

Point is, is it the business of the United States to initiate first-strikes to
topple other governments, however much we don't like them, through invasion and
warfare?  Do we start knocking over governments just because we *can*?

Even the CIA stated that they didn't think Saddam would or could be a menace to
the US unless invaded and pressed into a corner.  So again, why invade?

Real simple.  Because the supply of oil is shrinking, because they control one
of the largest supplies of oil on the planet, and Bush and his oil-company
buddies want control of that, and the right to re-draw the map of the Middle
East in ways they prefer.  

And I don't think that's a valid reason for one sovereign nation to go to war
with another.  

If there were even a single piece of proof that there was any tie between Iraq
and 9/11, if there were any direct attack on US soil by Iraq, I'd be right
there saying let's get 'em.  But there's not.  

We abhor the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, intended to disable our military
so that we would not be a threat to their interests in the Pacific.  They say
they gave us plenty of warning, even a letter saying that was that and they
were moving.  But the act stands as one of the most shameful events in military

We should know better than to go down roads trod so often to shameful places by
others before us.  We should be better than that.  We should learn from

Saddam is a thug.  He deserves to go down, and he will, but it should be
through the actions of his own people, not through an invasion and a puppet

He's a creep.

But that doesn't make what's happening right.  

War should be the last resort of people of conscience, not the first resort.


(jmsatb5 at aol.com)
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