[B5JMS] Anon and on
b5jms at mail.fsl.cs.sunysb.edu
b5jms at mail.fsl.cs.sunysb.edu
Sun Mar 22 04:41:18 EDT 2009
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From: Josh Hill <usereplyto at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:03:19 -0400
Lines: 29
On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 00:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Ron <aparthon at gmail.com>
wrote:
>Those big production companies seem odd to me. These are the same
>people that told Roddenberry to get rid of the 'pointy earred guy'.
>And when they were considering a superman remake, one exec didn't want
>him to have a cape.
>
>I read a post somewhere that a man was trying to sell TNT a script
>about Jesus Christ, TNT wanted to have the Lord flying around shooting
>lightning bolts at people. That's not even in the biblcal text. In
>fact when two of his disciples asked him if he wanted them to call
>down fire on a village he told them no and said they didn't know what
>spirit they were from.
>
>I guess at some point when you're in that industry, you just become an
>idiot. It's like a bug, or virus that you catch.
It's not that everyone in the industry is an idiot, far from it. It's
just that as in every business you have good people working alongside
bad ones, the whole gamut of abilities, and that as in other American
industries today the path to the executive suite doesn't always run
through the Fields of Knowledge and Experience.
--
Josh
"What is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?" - Sarah Palin
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From: Matt Ion <soundy106 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 11:20:07 -0700
Lines: 20
Josh Hill wrote:
>> I guess at some point when you're in that industry, you just become an
>> idiot. It's like a bug, or virus that you catch.
>
> It's not that everyone in the industry is an idiot, far from it. It's
> just that as in every business you have good people working alongside
> bad ones, the whole gamut of abilities, and that as in other American
> industries today the path to the executive suite doesn't always run
> through the Fields of Knowledge and Experience.
I dunno, I think the "Entertainment Industry" operates on a mutated
version of the Peter Principle, where once an individual rises to his
own level of incompetence, he doesn't just stay there, but shoots right
through the roof. There appears to be some conservation of momentum
involved, in that the faster the rise, the further that person
overshoots the mark. And of course, what goes up in these cases, rarely
ever comes back down.
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From: "Charlie E." <edmondson at ieee.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 05:03:59 GMT
Lines: 32
On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 11:20:07 -0700, Matt Ion <soundy106 at gmail.com>
wrote:
>Josh Hill wrote:
>
>>> I guess at some point when you're in that industry, you just become an
>>> idiot. It's like a bug, or virus that you catch.
>>
>> It's not that everyone in the industry is an idiot, far from it. It's
>> just that as in every business you have good people working alongside
>> bad ones, the whole gamut of abilities, and that as in other American
>> industries today the path to the executive suite doesn't always run
>> through the Fields of Knowledge and Experience.
>
>I dunno, I think the "Entertainment Industry" operates on a mutated
>version of the Peter Principle, where once an individual rises to his
>own level of incompetence, he doesn't just stay there, but shoots right
>through the roof. There appears to be some conservation of momentum
>involved, in that the faster the rise, the further that person
>overshoots the mark. And of course, what goes up in these cases, rarely
>ever comes back down.
>
It is more an offshoot of the Dilbert Principle, where you don't fire
the incompentent, you move them to where they can cause less damage -
management! Then, once one pointy haired boss reaches VP status, he
gets the other PHB's promoted too! Pretty soon, the entire
organization is incompentent, but no one gets fired, because they
would have to fire themselves! Ring in the G-S!
Charlie
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From: Josh Hill <usereplyto at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:16:34 -0400
Lines: 26
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 05:03:59 GMT, "Charlie E." <edmondson at ieee.org>
wrote:
>It is more an offshoot of the Dilbert Principle, where you don't fire
>the incompentent, you move them to where they can cause less damage -
>management! Then, once one pointy haired boss reaches VP status, he
>gets the other PHB's promoted too! Pretty soon, the entire
>organization is incompentent, but no one gets fired, because they
>would have to fire themselves! Ring in the G-S!
I've also notice that the know-nothing incompetent executives don't
recognize other incompetent executives. Working for someone who really
knows the field, particularly if you're in a technological (and I
suspect creative) area, is a real pleasure.
And then there's the out-of-touch management phenomenon, when everyone
in the company knows that Executive A doesn't know what he's doing and
is making a total mess of things -- everyone, that is, except his boss
-- but everyone is scared to tell his boss (who probably wouldn't
believe them anyway).
--
Josh
"What is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?" - Sarah Palin
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From: Bill <feline_ranger at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
Lines: 39
On Mar 15, 10:16=EF=BF=BDam, Josh Hill <userepl... at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 05:03:59 GMT, "Charlie E." <edmond... at ieee.org>
> wrote:
>
> >It is more an offshoot of the Dilbert Principle, where you don't fire
> >the incompentent, you move them to where they can cause less damage -
> >management! =EF=BF=BDThen, once one pointy haired boss reaches VP status=
, he
> >gets the other PHB's promoted too! =EF=BF=BDPretty soon, the entire
> >organization is incompentent, but no one gets fired, because they
> >would have to fire themselves! =EF=BF=BDRing in the G-S!
>
> I've also notice that the know-nothing incompetent executives don't
> recognize other incompetent executives. Working for someone who really
> knows the field, particularly if you're in a technological (and I
> suspect creative) area, is a real pleasure.
>
> And then there's the out-of-touch management phenomenon, when everyone
> in the company knows that Executive A doesn't know what he's doing and
> is making a total mess of things --everyone, that is, except his boss
> -- but everyone is scared to tell his boss (who probably wouldn't
> believe them anyway).
>
> --
> Josh
>
> "What is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?" - Sarah Palin
There's a reason that everyone is justifiably afraid to tell Executive
A's boss that Executive A is incompetent. Executive A's boss is also
usually your boss and will fire *you* if you try to tell him that his
golfing/drinking/etc. buddy is an imbecile. I know this from <mumble
mumble> experiences where I am usually the one trying to tell the boss
about the idiot. Hell, I just got fired from a place that is the
living, breathing embodiment of your Dilbert Principle BECAUSE I
proved that the second shift manager was clueless.
Bill
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From: Josh Hill <usereplyto at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:20:29 -0400
Lines: 35
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT), Bill
<feline_ranger at yahoo.com> wrote:
>There's a reason that everyone is justifiably afraid to tell Executive
>A's boss that Executive A is incompetent. Executive A's boss is also
>usually your boss and will fire *you* if you try to tell him that his
>golfing/drinking/etc. buddy is an imbecile. I know this from <mumble
>mumble> experiences where I am usually the one trying to tell the boss
>about the idiot. Hell, I just got fired from a place that is the
>living, breathing embodiment of your Dilbert Principle BECAUSE I
>proved that the second shift manager was clueless.
Or else the big boss will go, in all innocence, to his subordinate,
and say, "Oh, that guy Jeff who works for you says you're incompetent.
What do you have to say about that?" And then Jeff's boss would take
it out on him.
Reminds me of a particularly obnoxious chief engineer who worked for
a client of mine. Everybody hated this guy with a passion, so much so
that when he walked into a room, everyone there would find a reason to
get up and walk out, leaving him wondering where everybody had went.
I gave up that gig myself because I wouldn't work for him, and they
were my biggest client and favorite place to work. But the guys who
worked for him didn't have that option, and every afternoon, one of
them would reach the point at which smoke was pouring out of his ears
and announce to everyone "OK, that does it, I'm going to management
about this guy!" So the next morning, I'd ask him if he'd gone to
management . . . and he'd reply, "Nah, I got a mortgage."
--
Josh
"What is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?" - Sarah Palin
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From: Kathryn Huxtable <kathryn at kathrynhuxtable.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:01:28 -0500
Lines: 38
Josh Hill <usereplyto at gmail.com> writes:
> Reminds me of a particularly obnoxious chief engineer who worked for
> a client of mine. Everybody hated this guy with a passion, so much so
> that when he walked into a room, everyone there would find a reason to
> get up and walk out, leaving him wondering where everybody had went.
>
> I gave up that gig myself because I wouldn't work for him, and they
> were my biggest client and favorite place to work. But the guys who
> worked for him didn't have that option, and every afternoon, one of
> them would reach the point at which smoke was pouring out of his ears
> and announce to everyone "OK, that does it, I'm going to management
> about this guy!" So the next morning, I'd ask him if he'd gone to
> management . . . and he'd reply, "Nah, I got a mortgage."
Yes, I faced that situation, except that thanks to my father I have
outside income. (He left me debt-free rental property that's enough to
live on.)
Where I worked in IT, the CIO was an idiot. My boss reported to her
and although he's a polite guy and wouldn't say anything terribly bad
about her to my face, he didn't disagree when I pointed out her many
shortcomings.
After a reorganization, things came to a head for me, and I said what
I had to and then quit. A few months later she was fired. (Well,
non-renewed, which for administrative support staff at a state
university amounts to the same thing.)
The economy is really hurting the university's budget right now, so
things haven't really improved, moralewise, but they may. I keep in
touch.
Anyway, a lot of people would love to have the option I had of telling
truth to power, but they don't have the option. They have a
mortgage. Well, so do I, but I can cover it.
-K, on a fairly restricted budget, but happy. The Kindle was a gift.
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From: Doug Freyburger <dfreybur at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:05:26 -0700 (PDT)
Lines: 56
Kathryn Huxtable <kath... at kathrynhuxtable.org> wrote:
> Josh Hill <userepl... at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I gave up that gig myself because I wouldn't work for him, and they
> > were my biggest client and favorite place to work. But the guys who
> > worked for him didn't have that option, and every afternoon, one of
> > them would reach the point at which smoke was pouring out of his ears
> > and announce to everyone "OK, that does it, I'm going to management
> > about this guy!" So the next morning, I'd ask him if he'd gone to
> > management . . . and he'd reply, "Nah, I got a mortgage."
>
> Where I worked in IT, the CIO was an idiot. My boss reported to her
> and although he's a polite guy and wouldn't say anything terribly bad
> about her to my face, he didn't disagree when I pointed out her many
> shortcomings.
>
> After a reorganization, things came to a head for me, and I said what
> I had to and then quit ...
There's intense pressure to "not burn bridges" so many times
folks won't even report the reason when they quit. I remember
trying to explain the reason once when I left a job. Not going
to happen again if the reason is similar. I have returned to
places for a second time around on more than one occasion
in my career.
Someone who is bad enough triggers turnover. People change
jobs to get away. If upper management tracked voluntary
turnover and started specifically asking some might be willing
to answer honestly. "We track turn over as part of manager
performance reviews and to make sure none of our managers
are actively damaging the company. In the last year more than
twice the usual number of employees reporting to X have left.
Is X the reason you are leaving the company? If you had
reported to someone other than X would you be leaving now?
Is it too late to offer you a transfer to another manager?"
There have been companies I would have answered Yes to
all 3 questions in a row. Once you've gone as far as accepting
an outside offer to get out from under a bad manager there is
no longer anything the company can do even if they get rid of
that bad manager, but doing so might stem the tide for others
still in the group.
Thinking about all of the managers I've had over the years,
well under 5% have been so bad I started looking because of
them. It's easy to listen to honor stories and not realize
folks have entire careers to be able to have 1-3 such stories.
Even with the ridiculous cubicle culture far too accurately
described in Dilbert the vast majority of people want to do a
good job and get along.
Still, there's a small number of folks I consider asking
them to become one of my LinkedIn contacts specifically
to know where they are currently working so I can turn down
any interview at the company they are currently at.
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From: "Charlie E." <edmondson at ieee.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:13:29 GMT
Lines: 120
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:05:26 -0700 (PDT), Doug Freyburger
<dfreybur at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Kathryn Huxtable <kath... at kathrynhuxtable.org> wrote:
>> Josh Hill <userepl... at gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > I gave up that gig myself because I wouldn't work for him, and they
>> > were my biggest client and favorite place to work. But the guys who
>> > worked for him didn't have that option, and every afternoon, one of
>> > them would reach the point at which smoke was pouring out of his ears
>> > and announce to everyone "OK, that does it, I'm going to management
>> > about this guy!" So the next morning, I'd ask him if he'd gone to
>> > management . . . and he'd reply, "Nah, I got a mortgage."
>>
>> Where I worked in IT, the CIO was an idiot. My boss reported to her
>> and although he's a polite guy and wouldn't say anything terribly bad
>> about her to my face, he didn't disagree when I pointed out her many
>> shortcomings.
>>
>> After a reorganization, things came to a head for me, and I said what
>> I had to and then quit ...
>
>There's intense pressure to "not burn bridges" so many times
>folks won't even report the reason when they quit. I remember
>trying to explain the reason once when I left a job. Not going
>to happen again if the reason is similar. I have returned to
>places for a second time around on more than one occasion
>in my career.
>
>Someone who is bad enough triggers turnover. People change
>jobs to get away. If upper management tracked voluntary
>turnover and started specifically asking some might be willing
>to answer honestly. "We track turn over as part of manager
>performance reviews and to make sure none of our managers
>are actively damaging the company. In the last year more than
>twice the usual number of employees reporting to X have left.
>Is X the reason you are leaving the company? If you had
>reported to someone other than X would you be leaving now?
>Is it too late to offer you a transfer to another manager?"
>There have been companies I would have answered Yes to
>all 3 questions in a row. Once you've gone as far as accepting
>an outside offer to get out from under a bad manager there is
>no longer anything the company can do even if they get rid of
>that bad manager, but doing so might stem the tide for others
>still in the group.
>
>Thinking about all of the managers I've had over the years,
>well under 5% have been so bad I started looking because of
>them. It's easy to listen to honor stories and not realize
>folks have entire careers to be able to have 1-3 such stories.
>Even with the ridiculous cubicle culture far too accurately
>described in Dilbert the vast majority of people want to do a
>good job and get along.
>
>Still, there's a small number of folks I consider asking
>them to become one of my LinkedIn contacts specifically
>to know where they are currently working so I can turn down
>any interview at the company they are currently at.
A decade or so ago, I was working at MFS Network Technologies. It
seemed to be a home for bad bosses. The original boss I hired in for
was pretty good, so he only lasted six months after I got there. He
had a bad habit of saying NO to the bosses when what they wanted was
impossible...
I then transfered from R&D to one of the project, the 91 Express
Lanes. Then started my string of bad bosses. The first one kept me
assigned to a test facility we had built 90 miles away. Quite a
commute every day, especially when combined with 10 hour days. I kept
trying to get some assignments in the office, but even when I needed
to go in for something, he got mad and wondered why I wasn't in the
field!
A few months later, I found out why. Evidently, he was afraid of me!
I had a masters, and had helped design most of the equipment we were
installing. He was afraid that if I was in the office, his boss would
find out I was a pretty good guy, and fire him! So, instead, he was
keeping me in the field, and poisoning me with his boss. The new boss
had come in to the project shortly after I had, but I had only met him
briefly just once, when he came out to the test site. Even then,
though I didn't realize it at the time, my boss was making sure we
didn't get a sit down. So, when the test site was closing down, my
boss left for another job, and I finally got to come back to the
office.
One of the first things that happened was I finally had a sit down
with the second line boss. I was blindsided by his questions. My
former boss had described me as 'a Problem,' and that I had 'home
problems.' (well, yeah, my wife hadn't seen me for four months! She
is blind, and we had moved to a new community, and she didn't know
anyone...) So I was blown completely away when he offered me a new
job - Maintance Technician, and to be made hourly instead of salary. I
of course refused. I had been hired as an engineer, not a technician.
Boy was I stupid... 8-)
I would have been much better off as the technician. I was laid off
at the end of the year do to my not putting in enough time. I was
only working 55-60 hours a week! I took Sundays off!!! if I had been
paid hourly, the overtime would have made me rich!
By the way, didn't I mention bad bosses, plural? That second line
boss that had been so bamboozled by my first boss was worse! He would
come up to you and ask whether a certain task would be finished by the
end of the day. As he asked, he would pull out this knife, and begin
shaving the hairs on his arm, and remark about just how sharp it is.
he thought the implied threat was funny!
I had the last laugh. When I was laid off, I didn't work my last week
and a half. When HR called me about it, I told them they could either
pay me through the end of the year, and vest all my stock shares, or I
would get an attorney. I told them about the knife and a few other
tihings, and found myself with an extra 100 shares of stock!
Actually, I had two last laughs. A few months later, I was working at
a different company when who do I see, but the boss with the knife! He
has been fired from MFS, and was now interviewing there. Let us just
say that he wasn't hired... 8-)
Charlei
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From: Josh Hill <usereplyto at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:31:33 -0400
Lines: 21
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:13:29 GMT, "Charlie E." <edmondson at ieee.org>
wrote:
>Actually, I had two last laughs. A few months later, I was working at
>a different company when who do I see, but the boss with the knife! He
>has been fired from MFS, and was now interviewing there. Let us just
>say that he wasn't hired... 8-)
That's happened to every incompetent boss I've ever had. I even had
the satisfaction of returning for a consulting gig and working in the
office that had just been vacated by one of these people, who had been
escorted out a few days earlier by a security guard after he'd been
caught stealing from the pension fund. The problem is, what with upper
management always being the last to catch on to anything, it always
seems to happen too late to do you any good!
--
Josh
"What is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?" - Sarah Palin
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From: "jmsatb5 at aol.com" <jmsatb5 at aol.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 02:01:39 -0700 (PDT)
Lines: 30
So here's the deal. I'm calling on everybody in sight to help me
bring back a word. It's a conspiracy, see, and you're all part of it
if you choose to be.
I want to bring back the word "anon." As in, "I'll call you anon," or
"See you anon."
It isn't as specific as "see you tomorrow," when you may not, or "I'll
call you later" which is even more ill defined and inelegant..."anon"
means simply again..."I'll see you again" or "I'll call you in the
fullness of time."
I've started using it, and slowly, over the last year, I've noticed
the people around me starting to pick up on it: friends, agents,
business folks.
I think it's time for anon to make a comeback.
If you want to be in on the conspiracy, just start using it in your
day to day speech and, when it can be done quietly, because this is a
conspiracy after all, enlisting others to do the same. But it's best
if it's just used regularly, without making a deal out of it.
If every B5 and SF fan who sees this helps out, I th ink we can work
this word back into everyday English within two years.
C'mon...let's play.
jms
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